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Brooklyn

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Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« on: March 15, 2023, 12:50:38 PM »
The problem of evil is a daunting topic to face when trying to prove God's existence. The question is why would an all powerful god allow for humanity to face evil on a day to day basis with no interference? One opposition to the logical problem of evil argument is the “rescue operation” argument by Van Inwagen. The argument goes as follows: God left evil in the world so that people would know what it was like to need a savior/rescuer. So therefore, if God removed evil then we would no longer know that we need him. Inwagen goes on to argue that “they must know what it means to be separated from him. And what it means to be separated from God is to live in a world of horrors.” With knowing what a world without God is like we should come to the conclusion that we need God. Although through scripture it is made clear that the Christian God has come to rescue us from sin, this argument still doesn't quite answer the question of why he doesn't eliminate all evil. Couldn’t he find another way for us to need him?

I do not think that God allows evil so that we may long for him to rescue us. I think that it is humanity's failure to pursue righteousness that evil continues to haunt us. When God created humanity he gave us free will, and it was with this free will that Eve chose to go against God's command and eat the fruit thus leading to the fall. Some may ask why God would even place the tree into the garden. I think that the tree was a symbol of life without God and the garden was life with God, because God loves us so much he wanted to give us the chance to choose life with him instead of it being forced. So it wasn't God who allowed evil, but humanity and our falleness. So yes I do believe God wants to recuse us, but I don’t think that the presence of evil in this world is only so we can know we need him. Evil is a product of humanity, we choose evil with our free will. Evil will continue to live on earth because if God were to intervene and remove evil then he is intervening on free will. It is free will that leads to evil and suffering. But our free will is what shows us that God loves us. That is why he sent Jesus to redeem humanity and give us the opportunity to live a life outside of evil in heaven.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2023, 03:03:25 AM »
My free will is already limited by the world I live in. I can't just will that I will float in the air, and then I will float. I can't will that my body will become indestructible.  I can't will that food will pop into existence in front of me when I get hungry.

There are many, many, many ways in which my free will is limited by nature, yet people would still call me free. So, why then is the line drawn where it is?  Why am I free to murder and rape and lie. Why aren't those actions equally impossible for me to physically do?

If god truely values good, but hates evil, why would he give us the ability to do so much evil, while limiting our ability to do other evils?  Is the ability to stab someone with a sharp object somehow required for free will?  I don't think so.

This gets worse when you consider heaven, but that can be addressed in another reply.

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jayceeii

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Re: Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2023, 06:21:52 AM »
The idea of God creating evil so men would feel a need for rescuing is quixotic, when all men would need rescuing from every other man! Each man thinks of himself as justified but there are no groups which are a haven for the justified, that they’d be free of competition over life’s necessities. Each man says, “Rescue me God from these other terrible people!” The help Christians needed was inaccessible in the pews beside them.

I can reiterate that blaming Eve for man’s fall is sexist, or more rightly, it was a prediction the nature of human society would be patriarchal (as was the concept Eve was made from Adam’s rib). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is labeled exactly that way because it is but a symbol that humans decide they know about good and evil.

If there are angels walking the Earth as the Bible predicates, then it is a wonder we have not seen any angel-only communities, which would be known by their freedom from laws and a morality based on rejoicing at the joy of another rather than duty to keep reputation. It seems likely such communities would have not boosted humanity, at least before now.

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kravarnik

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Re: Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2023, 09:11:39 AM »
My free will is already limited by the world I live in. I can't just will that I will float in the air, and then I will float. I can't will that my body will become indestructible.  I can't will that food will pop into existence in front of me when I get hungry.

There are many, many, many ways in which my free will is limited by nature, yet people would still call me free. So, why then is the line drawn where it is?  Why am I free to murder and rape and lie. Why aren't those actions equally impossible for me to physically do?

If god truely values good, but hates evil, why would he give us the ability to do so much evil, while limiting our ability to do other evils?  Is the ability to stab someone with a sharp object somehow required for free will?  I don't think so.

This gets worse when you consider heaven, but that can be addressed in another reply.

It's been told to you already. I don't know why atheists have such bad memory, or exemplify such refusal to listen to the answers provided.

The inherent possibility of corruption is due to being created: that is, coming out of nothing. As such, all that is contingent can cease being, since it is contingent(it can also NOT be)


God cannot make something that is inherently contingent, due to being created, to be necessary, thus inherently eternal, as that's simply impossible: you cannot have a beginning, yet also not have a beginning; nor can you be contingent, yet also necessary at the same time in the same sense.

Any action, or state of being, in such a case has tendency to either increase in the excellence of its naturally good properties, or to decrease in these properties. So, contingency brings two inherent possibilities: to decrease, or outright eradicate, essentials; or to follow one's telos, thus increase, or achieve perfection, in essential his essential good.


For example: God couldn't possibly make it that contingent movement - such as walking, - is impossible to contain the possibility of "tripping up". No, you, as a created person in created reality, can always fail to pay attention where and how you're walking, thus bump into something, which trips you up, thus you fall down. Not only, but you can also deliberately bump into stuff, in order to fall - have you seen the Jackass movie?

It's simply inherent to the fact of contingent movement in contingent reality. What God can, though, is make you such a person, who always make the proper decision and pays attention to the right things, which keeps him from falling.


The possibility of corruptibility is always inherent to contingency. If I have arms, with which I can hug, they can also strangle. If I have hands, with which I can gently caress you, they can also be used to steal, or murder. And so on. So, contingent good comes with the possibility of corrupting it, thus turn it into contingent sin, thus contingent evil.

God didn't give you the ability to do evil, you've chosen to corrupt the ability He has given you to do good. These are two very different things: God did not thought of the evil and invented it; He only provided the contingent good, which you then used your mind to pervert and abuse, thus use it sinfully, therefore have yourself abide in evil.


Not too sure why atheists have such a hard time remembering such basic notions within Christian philosophy that deal with the stupid objection of "but why can't there be no evil whatsoever? GOD MUST HAVE CREATED IT!". No, you're simply not analyzing what contingency means and how free will can abuse the possibilities that contingency brings, which are inherent to contingency.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 09:14:04 AM by kravarnik »
"For though the splendour of His eternal glory overtax our mind's best powers, it cannot fail to see that He is beautiful. We must in truth confess that God is most beautiful, and that with a beauty which, though it transcend our comprehension, forces itself upon our perception." Saint Hilary

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kravarnik

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Re: Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2023, 09:21:01 AM »
So, in more simple terms: contingency means a thing COULD NOT and/or COULD HAVE NOT existed. Since contingency means that, then it means all that is contingent has the inherent possibility of "not existing", or "never having to exist". In other words: all that comes from nothing has the possibility to return to nothing.


That inherent possibility can be actualized. SIN IS WHAT ACTUALIZES THAT POSSIBILITY. Sin is that action, which makes that inherent possibility in contingency actual. That possibility in matter being actualized is precisely what we call sin(when a person ushers said corruption), or natural evil(when nature starts dissolving by itself, regardless of personal action towards it).


The Salvation of man is God making you like Himself, precisely like His Son, Christ Jesus, so you never enact these actions that usher in said possibility of corruption in contingent reality: sin, that is, thus you can abide in His Kingdom, which is incorruptible and admits to no evil and corruption. For in God and in His Kingdom, due to Him being necessary and eternal, corruption and evil cannot be by necessity.
"For though the splendour of His eternal glory overtax our mind's best powers, it cannot fail to see that He is beautiful. We must in truth confess that God is most beautiful, and that with a beauty which, though it transcend our comprehension, forces itself upon our perception." Saint Hilary

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Jabberwock

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Re: Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2023, 09:31:52 AM »
So, in more simple terms: contingency means a thing COULD NOT and/or COULD HAVE NOT existed. Since contingency means that, then it means all that is contingent has the inherent possibility of "not existing", or "never having to exist". In other words: all that comes from nothing has the possibility to return to nothing.


That inherent possibility can be actualized. SIN IS WHAT ACTUALIZES THAT POSSIBILITY. Sin is that action, which makes that inherent possibility in contingency actual. That possibility in matter being actualized is precisely what we call sin(when a person ushers said corruption), or natural evil(when nature starts dissolving by itself, regardless of personal action towards it).


The Salvation of man is God making you like Himself, precisely like His Son, Christ Jesus, so you never enact these actions that usher in said possibility of corruption in contingent reality: sin, that is, thus you can abide in His Kingdom, which is incorruptible and admits to no evil and corruption. For in God and in His Kingdom, due to Him being necessary and eternal, corruption and evil cannot be by necessity.

You are simply contradicting yourself. If you claim that 'The possibility of corruptibility is always inherent to contingency', then humans in heaven cannot achieve a state where it is not possible for them to be corrupted.
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Rescue operation and the problem of evil
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2023, 09:50:14 AM »
Krav, none of that explains why an earthquake would happen?  Earth quakes happen because the earths plates move according to physics.  This isn't the result of degradation to the environment due to humans sinning.  This is the way that it was designed to work (if it was designed).  There is nothing contradictory about humans existing on a planet that does not have tectonic plates, and thus no earthquakes.

EDIT:

Quote
The possibility of corruptibility is always inherent to contingency. If I have arms, with which I can hug, they can also strangle. If I have hands, with which I can gently caress you, they can also be used to steal, or murder. And so on. So, contingent good comes with the possibility of corrupting it, thus turn it into contingent sin, thus contingent evil.

But this doesn't follow.  Just because your arms can hug doesn't mean that they can also strangle.  I can breath in air, can I also breathe in water?  No.  I can jump a foot high, can I also jump over a building?  The possibility of corruption is not built in but has to be designed into the system.  The system can also be designed in such a way as to minimize, or even eliminate the possibility of corruption.  Or are you saying that God is incapable of preventing his creation from becoming corrupt?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 09:53:06 AM by Johan Biemans (jbiemans) »