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Questions11

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2016, 10:11:40 AM »
Yup.  Universalism has scriptural support.  Not saying that other eschatologies don't, just that universalism does.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2016, 10:12:46 AM »
That would make universalism true, and therefore make all religion moot, right ?  Except for this verse:

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Matthew 7:21-23New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The words of Jesus seem to contradict the passage from Romans.

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Questions11

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2016, 10:18:15 AM »
'Seem' is a key word here.  This is not the thread for it but there are fairly easy ways to harmonise these passage, either in one direction or the other.

Of course, your comment about making all religion moot is an obvious error.  Universalism in no way makes faith in Christ or religion moot. 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 12:18:30 PM by Questions11 »

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lancia

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2016, 10:21:36 AM »
That would make universalism true, and therefore make all religion moot, right ?  Except for this verse:

Quote
Matthew 7:21-23New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The words of Jesus seem to contradict the passage from Romans.

These verses clearly refer to the kingdom of heaven, not to heaven. Thus, they have nothing necessarily to do with one's permanent fate.

But to the larger point, there are indeed verses that, more strongly than these you cite, seem to suggest not all will be saved.

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Emuse

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2016, 10:30:54 AM »
Matthew 25 states that some will be cast into eternal fire.

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AnimatedDirt

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2016, 10:37:30 AM »
Matthew 25 states that some will be cast into eternal fire.

All will bend their knee...but some will only do so after Judgment has begun...that's just a hair too late and not necessarily because they submit to Him as Lord.
People are amusing.

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lancia

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2016, 10:56:46 AM »
Matthew 25 states that some will be cast into eternal fire.

Yes, Matthew 25:41 is one of the verses I spoke of. But note that, in the parable, what places one in the "goat" category is failure to do good works! Nothing is said of faith. Of course, people will say, "You do good works because you have faith." While that is true for some people who do good works, it is not true for all people who do good works.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 10:59:30 AM by lancia »

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kravarnik

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2016, 10:58:04 AM »
I think there is a simple solution as to why believers can't agree on this and that is because the Biblical authors don't agree with one another on this.  Let's take a comment from the author of the letter to the Hebrews ...

"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,  5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,  6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

Hebrews 6:4-6


The author is saying that someone can't be brought back to repentance if they fall away which is to state that someone cannot be brought to a point of repentance if they have repented before and have since fallen away.  He even goes on to say that some of these have "become partakers of the Holy Spirit".  So say that the author is not referring to believers that he considers genuine would involve reading huge amounts into the text that simply isn't there ... and only to stop Biblical authors disagreeing with one another.  Something which doesn't form any part of any standard historical analysis.

If a true believer can't fall away then why issue a warning on something that can't happen?  It would be like me saying, "You can't heal the broken leg of a person who has crashed to the ground after flying just by flapping their arms".  Well, thanks for pointing that out Emuse!  I don't expect I will need to do that any time soon.  On the other hand, if a person can have repented, partaken of the Holy Spirit and so on and still not be a genuine believer ... then what? 

The simplest solution is that the Biblical authors disagreed with one another on this topic.  And why would we even deny that when we know that division arose in the Church early on and in relation to doctrinal issues?  What would we make of someone in 2000 years time who took books from Plantinga, Craig and Swinbourne and simply on the basis of an assumption (these blokes were divinely inspired) tried to make them agree with one another?  Modern believers can disagree so why not ancient ones?  In short, some thought that a genuine believer could be lost whilst others didn't and this is reflected in their writings.

I really don't know what's the issue here? Judas was a believer - the Holy Spirit worked through him when casting out demons, baptizing and the such, - yet he did fall away from Grace. Similarly with Peter - he just went to deny Christ three times(but in his case he didn't go to conclusively deny Christ, but repented and came back to Him).

So, it is within the very text of the Bible how one of the main characters actually was a follower and a believer, but eventually fell away.


This is a perfect parallel to OT covenant - the seed of Abraham was blessed and under Grace, through Abraham's righteousness, due to being descendants of Abaraham. Some of them, although in the covenant with God, sinned and through their iniquities they were expelled from the covenant.


That same thing is going on here. The difference being that Christians accept Christ, thus enter the covenant at this point ; while ethnic Jews were born in the covenant, but expelled themselves by rejecting God. However, in both covenants people DID fall away, once they entered.

The Book of Revelation clearly portrays certain Christ condemning some of the Churches, or if not at least some of the members, although they at some point(at the founding of the Church) did accept Christ and did ENTER THE COVENANT.


So, you can experience the Holy Spirit and eventually fall into wickedness - Judas and some members of the early Church(in Revelation) are the NT example ; while some members of Jewish society did so in OT, by falling into idolatry(though, they didn't lose the Holy Spirit, because it wasn't part of the OT covenant, however they lost the blessings of the Covenant and the saving power of the covenant).
"For though the splendour of His eternal glory overtax our mind's best powers, it cannot fail to see that He is beautiful. We must in truth confess that God is most beautiful, and that with a beauty which, though it transcend our comprehension, forces itself upon our perception." Saint Hilary

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Questions11

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2016, 12:19:46 PM »
Emuse:

Again, there's fairly easy ways to harmonise such apparent disparate texts either in one direction or the other.  See the relevant literature.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2016, 12:37:41 PM »
Don't you find it problematic that you can harmonize them for both options ?

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lancia

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2016, 12:47:58 PM »
Don't you find it problematic that you can harmonize them for both options ?

Yes, but what is more problematic is those who harmonize for one option (i.e., Universalism) are often called heretics on this site while those who harmonize for the other two common options (i.e., Arminianism and Calvinism) are not.

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Questions11

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2016, 02:56:03 PM »
I don't find it particularly problematic, no.  Firstly because the simple fact that they can be harmonised either way says nothing of the comparative strength of the harmonisations - it might be that the harmonisation one way is far more convincing than the other.  After all, this would be the same for geo and helio centrism.  Secondly, because in my experience all complex texts have multiple interpretations and such issues.  It would be weird if the bible of all books didn't.

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Rostos

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2016, 03:19:49 PM »
I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really dont know why Atheists look at the actions of "believers" as opposed to what scripture says when judging a philosophy/religion.

One of the greatest mysteries of mankind.

Really ??

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Matthew 7:16-20King James Version (KJV)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

How on earth is that even an argument against what i said?

Rostos:  Why do atheists judge believers by their actions ?

Johan: Matthew 7:16-20 says that you can know them by their fruits (You can know my followers by their actions).  In other words, atheists can judge believers by their actions because it says so in the Bible.

Rostos: What does that have to do with what I said ?

Where does this passage single out atheists?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2016, 03:50:13 PM »
It doesn't Rostos.  It makes a universal claim that is applicable to everyone, theists and atheists alike that you shall know them by their fruits.  Atheists look at the actions of believers because the scriptures say that you can judge Christians by their actions, right ?

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bdsimon

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Re: Are Christians being logically fallacious?
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2016, 04:08:39 PM »
Don't you find it problematic that you can harmonize them for both options ?
I can harmonize for multiple options. As I said before, rather than arguing that one particular way is the only way, I embrace the possibility that God calls many in different ways through the same texts but different means. I take no issue with that and in fact find it a likely route that an all knowing being would take. I sometimes get different meanings on different readings.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.