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confused

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Did God choose his nature?
« on: March 15, 2016, 11:05:22 AM »
"God is omnipotent."  Did God choose to be omnipotent? 

"God is omniscient."  Did God choose to be omniscient? 

"God is eternal."  Did God choose to be eternal? Etc. etc.

Or, more generally speaking, did God choose his nature (i.e. his attributes)?

If God chose his nature then does this mean there was a range of possible natures he could have chosen instead?  Could he have chosen to be impotent, ignorant, and temporal as opposed to omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal?  Why did he choose the nature he presently has instead of some alternative nature?

If God doesn't choose his nature then does this mean he is a 'slave' to his nature?  Can God be replaced with a computer program?

Does the concept of 'choice' even apply to God?

Your thoughts?

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Questions11

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 11:09:02 AM »
From my POV:

God did not choose to be omnipotent, but decides to remain so (and no doubt made that choice before time if there was such a thing).  Same with the others.

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aleph naught

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 11:09:39 AM »
No, God's nature (including his goodness) is beyond his control. In other words, God is determined to behave as he does by facts beyond his control.

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Brian_G

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2016, 11:17:50 AM »
"God is omnipotent."  Did God choose to be omnipotent? 

"God is omniscient."  Did God choose to be omniscient? 

"God is eternal."  Did God choose to be eternal? Etc. etc.

Or, more generally speaking, did God choose his nature (i.e. his attributes)?

If God chose his nature then does this mean there was a range of possible natures he could have chosen instead?  Could he have chosen to be impotent, ignorant, and temporal as opposed to omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal?  Why did he choose the nature he presently has instead of some alternative nature?

No.  God didn't choose his divine attributes.  He has them necessarily.


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If God doesn't choose his nature then does this mean he is a 'slave' to his nature?

I'm not sure how you can be a slave to your own nature, even analogously.  Slavery suggest someone else has authority over you.  You can't be a slave to yourself.

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  Can God be replaced with a computer program?

No, then God would be a created being.

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Does the concept of 'choice' even apply to God?



God's free with respect to creation.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2016, 12:05:54 PM »
From my POV:

God did not choose to be omnipotent, but decides to remain so (and no doubt made that choice before time if there was such a thing).  Same with the others.

But could God choose to not be omnipotent ?  I would think that would entail a contradiction, wouldn't it ?  That would be saying that a necessary being could cease to exist (if God stopped being omnipotent, then he would stop being God).

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alex1212

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2016, 12:12:09 PM »
No God did not choose his nature, but why would that make him a slave? In what sense? By not having absolute freewill? (is that even coherent?) If so, that's a concept of freewill that I don't find obviously true, and thus, you are going to have to defend it. It's a logically impossible task that you are asking God to do because God cannot not be the way He is by definition; in other words, it's logically impossible for God to choose his nature or be different. And no that wouldn't compromise God's omnipotence because omnipotence doesn't include the ability to do logically impossible things, and that wouldn't compromise freewill because the task can't possibly be chosen. I don't know why anyone would subscribe to a version of freewill that advocates choosing something that is not choosable or being something that can't be anything else. By your conception of freewill, I wouldn't have freewill because I didn't choose to be human or a beaver or I wouldn't have freewill because I can't teleport, create universes with my mind, nor make angels, or choosing to exist and not exist at the same time.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2016, 12:34:25 PM »
But the free will comes in if you ask:

Is God able to do something other than what he knows he will do?  If not, it seems that he is just following his knowledge, not guiding it.

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Questions11

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 02:30:15 PM »
JB:

Yes, I think He could.  But since I think logic is grounded in God's nature, and that omnipotence could do even the illogical, that is not an issue (though it raises other issues). He doesn't cease to be omnipotent because His nature is rational and good, and thus He won't do that which is irrational/illogical or wrong - like permentaly giving up omnipotence.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2016, 02:35:57 PM »
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JB:

Yes, I think He could.  But since I think logic is grounded in God's nature, and that omnipotence could do even the illogical, that is not an issue (though it raises other issues). He doesn't cease to be omnipotent because His nature is rational and good, and thus He won't do that which is irrational/illogical or wrong - like permentaly giving up omnipotence.

But if God can choose to do other than what he knows he will do, then he cannot have infallible knowledge of the future.

I am confused by the rest though ??  Are you saying that God can do the illogical?  However, God simply wont because the illogical is against his nature ?  (Also what is the difference between, won't because it is against their nature and can't because it is against their nature.  Aren't those the same thing ? )  That position is puzzling to me ??

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Questions11

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2016, 02:43:48 PM »
As an open theist I don't think the future can be known if LFW exists.

To your other questions, except the last: yes. 
To the last: No.

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HIJ

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2016, 03:04:09 PM »
A relevant (and good, and short) book: http://www.amazon.com/Does-Have-Nature-Aquinas-Lecture/dp/0874621453/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458075815&sr=8-1&keywords=does+god+have+nature%3F



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bdsimon

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2016, 06:05:52 PM »
What would we say of Jesus as Christians? Was He able to choose which parts of His divine nature to embody? Could he lay down His omniscience? I think you could argue that these attributes are both part of His nature and sustained by His will.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 07:07:20 PM »
If Jesus was not omniscient nor omnipotent, could he still be called God ?

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bdsimon

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 07:13:03 PM »
If Jesus was not omniscient nor omnipotent, could he still be called God ?
Good question. He is called God within the New Testament but I think you mean philosophically. Of course a Christian would maintain that Jesus "set those attributes aside" (Phil 2) in order to become man. So He had the potential for being both omnipotent and omniscience but did not choose to act on those parts of His nature.

Would God be omnipotent if He was unable to (temporarily) set aside some of His attributes?
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Did God choose his nature?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 07:15:21 PM »
But you cannot set aside attributes that are essential to your nature.  (that kinda is the definition of essential)

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Would God be omnipotent if He was unable to (temporarily) set aside some of His attributes?

Yes, because most definitions of omnipotent include the condition that God cannot do the logically impossible, and setting aside attributes that are essential to your nature is logically impossible.