Have you ever met a person that embraced determinism as true?

[RichardChad]

So, still no atheists coming forward? Aleph? Emuse? Identity Crisis? apophenia?

This is what you're basing your reality on, no vigorous defense??

[RichardChad]

In addition, a person behaving in a way that is inconsistent with something they claim doesn't tell us very much.  Bob's claim to his son that "smoking is dangerous and heightens the risk of heart disease and various types of cancer" is not falsified by Bob stepping outside for a cigarette.

It tells us Bob is knowingly engaging in conduct he acknowledges as incorrect.

Is that what you're doing?

[john doe]

In my experience there is are enormous differences between those who claim to hold determinism is true, and the expectations others have for them on account of that opinion. 

Not unlike the way atheists and theists often imagine it would be to change positions.  Many theists seem to think as an atheist they'd immediately lose all human feeling and empathy for others.  Atheists often seem to assume they would need to have had a lobotomy.

[hatsoff]

So, still no atheists coming forward? Aleph? Emuse? Identity Crisis? apophenia?

This is what you're basing your reality on, no vigorous defense??

If they aren't determinists, then why should they defend determinism?

As for myself, I am agnostic on the matter.  Determinism may be true, or it may not be.  But if I were to somehow discover that it is true, it would not change the way I behave.  You obviously think that it should change the way a person behaves, and this is the thesis which you have never adequately defended.

[Identity Crisis]

I'm not a determinist because I don't see why there couldn't be some aspect of reality that's not determined. What I've defended in the other thread is that a determinist can consistently account for choice, deliberation, and will in their worldview. Also, I've responded to your last post in the other thread.

[Friendly Banjo Atheist]

Have you ever met a person who embraces heliocentrism as true?  I mean, really true; someone who shuns words like "sunset."

[searcherman]

So, still no atheists coming forward? Aleph? Emuse? Identity Crisis? apophenia?

This is what you're basing your reality on, no vigorous defense??

If they aren't determinists, then why should they defend determinism?

As for myself, I am agnostic on the matter.  Determinism may be true, or it may not be.  But if I were to somehow discover that it is true, it would not change the way I behave.  You obviously think that it should change the way a person behaves, and this is the thesis which you have never adequately defended.

Ditto for me. To see the dissembly of Mr Berkshire's thesis is instructive and calls for heavy reading on my part.

[apophenia]

I'm not a determinist because I don't see why there couldn't be some aspect of reality that's not determined. What I've defended in the other thread is that a determinist can consistently account for choice, deliberation, and will in their worldview. Also, I've responded to your last post in the other thread.

I am a physicalist and a hard determinist and I agree with Identity Crisis here.  There is no fundamental conflict between determinism and the language of choice, deliberation, and will.  If I have LFW or if I don't have LFW, I would talk the same way about such things.  Your (RichardChad's) contention is that under determinism I should talk differently about these things.  I've yet to see you explain why.

You've stopped responding in the other thread in which we were just getting to such questions.    I can only speculate on the reasons why.

[RichardChad]

In my experience there is are enormous differences between those who claim to hold determinism is true, and the expectations others have for them on account of that opinion. 

Not unlike the way atheists and theists often imagine it would be to change positions.  Many theists seem to think as an atheist they'd immediately lose all human feeling and empathy for others.  Atheists often seem to assume they would need to have had a lobotomy.

whateverist: do you believe determinism is true?

[RichardChad]

I'm not a determinist because I don't see why there couldn't be some aspect of reality that's not determined. What I've defended in the other thread is that a determinist can consistently account for choice, deliberation, and will in their worldview. Also, I've responded to your last post in the other thread.

I am a physicalist and a hard determinist and I agree with Identity Crisis here.  There is no fundamental conflict between determinism and the language of choice, deliberation, and will. 

Oh my!
There is no fundamental conflict between:
1) determinism
2) the language of choice, deliberation, and will

A. that is simply an incoherent statement
B. it outs you as a person that wants to claim a belief, but doesnt actually hold to the belief
C. give me one example where in ANY OTHER area of human activity you embrace a view but use the language of that views negation to describe it!

You've stopped responding in the other thread in which we were just getting to such questions.    I can only speculate on the reasons why.

What other thread? I'm more than happy to jump back in.

[RichardChad]

Have you ever met a person who embraces heliocentrism as true?  I mean, really true; someone who shuns words like "sunset."

FBA: do you embrace determinism as true?

[Friendly Banjo Atheist]

Have you ever met a person who embraces heliocentrism as true?  I mean, really true; someone who shuns words like "sunset."

FBA: do you embrace determinism as true?

 Do you embrace heliocentrism as true?   If so, do you use the word "sunset"?

If yes to both, why do you employ language that seems to contradict your beliefs?

[RichardChad]

Have you ever met a person who embraces heliocentrism as true?  I mean, really true; someone who shuns words like "sunset."

FBA: do you embrace determinism as true?

 Do you embrace heliocentrism as true?   If so, do you use the word "sunset"?

If yes to both, why do you employ language that seems to contradict your beliefs?

A. This entire thread, what we see is atheists simply terrified of acknowledging determinism. In fact, as we've seen, they clearly and unambiguously want to not talk about it, and want to use words that only make sense on LFW.

B. How exactly does the word "sunset" only make sense on heliocentrism?
BB. Do you know ANYONE that refuses to acknowledge and defend the notion of heliocentrism?

C. FBA: your entire world view is based on a notion (determinism) that you simply refuse to endorse as true.
What does that tell you?

[john doe]

In my experience there is are enormous differences between those who claim to hold determinism is true, and the expectations others have for them on account of that opinion. 

Not unlike the way atheists and theists often imagine it would be to change positions.  Many theists seem to think as an atheist they'd immediately lose all human feeling and empathy for others.  Atheists often seem to assume they would need to have had a lobotomy.

whateverist: do you believe determinism is true?

I think the question is vexed.  Is the opposite of determinism indeterminism and does that make free will equivalent to indeterminism?  If so I don't think free will works.  It doesn't seem to be an either/or decision.  I believe I have a free choice of possible acts but not a free choice over what my disposition toward those choices should be.  On what basis could I choose to make my choices on a basis other than that which I do?  Vexed I say.

*crosses himself and exits thread in a hurry*

[RichardChad]

So, still no atheists coming forward? Aleph? Emuse? Identity Crisis? apophenia?

This is what you're basing your reality on, no vigorous defense??

If they aren't determinists, then why should they defend determinism?

As for myself, I am agnostic on the matter.  Determinism may be true, or it may not be.  But if I were to somehow discover that it is true, it would not change the way I behave.  You obviously think that it should change the way a person behaves, and this is the thesis which you have never adequately defended.

How is it possible to be an atheist and not be a materialist/physicalist/determinist?

That would be interesting for someone to explain : - )

Cue voluminous discussions on what "atheism" means, what "physicalism" means and what "determinism" means, and how they arent the same notion (which is true)
but
not one word on how its possible be an atheist and not be a materialist/physicalist/determinist (except for the "I see no reason..." ones, which aren't reasons.)