My Heart Breaks for Chicago

[wilsunphi]

Again.  The video footage upon which the allegations against Trump's campaign manager is made can be seen here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

This footage was only just now released on March 13.  Your link is connected to footage that has nothing to do with the the actual basis of the allegation itself.

Again, it's a classic "media hit job."  I doubt any intelligent voter will be dissuaded by it.  And, more probably, they will come closer to Trump's camp because of how obviously dishonest, and convenient, the accusation is.

It was a classic media hit job alright...but one that uses the dishonesty of the victim (in this case Trump). But what is troubling is that Trump campaign chose to scapegoat one of his own( also one who wasn't really going after him) for escaping. The way the hit job works is as follows (i recall Andrew Breitbart used this very effectively against Anthony Weiner)

1) You get a minor story( a real story but one which would not catch fire) and you get the evidence for it.
2) You release the accusation but without the evidence.
3) The accused is initially hesitant. Then his friends start counter stories asking for evidence.
4) You don't release the evidence..then the accused starts playing the victim and attacking you. The attacks reach fever pitch and becomes a bigger story in itself.
5) Then you release the evidence.

You are just seeing the step 5 and assuming the issue started there. The allegation started around last thursday. This is just the last step of it. The issue here is that in step 4 Trump tried to blame the issue on the conservative reporter who was trying sweep this under the rug.

[Steve B]

It was a classic media hit job alright...but one that uses the dishonesty of the victim (in this case Trump).

That's a judgment that people will make for themselves based on the evidence.  But let's not patronize people with assumptions.  They can make their own judgments. 

Here is the video footage that the allegation against Trump's campaign manager is based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

Let people reach their only conclusions about the allegations based on the facts.  We don't need to patronize people by telling them what the video shows.  Last I checked, people reading this forum have eyes.

[bdsimon]

I saw the video from the previous post. It was not shot within the past 24 hrs only uploaded within the past 24 hrs.

Wrong.  This is an allegation that has only come into existence since March 13.  The footage goes back to march 8.  But the footage was only released on March 13 when the allegation came out.  The timing smacks of the political opportunism.

The woman in the video claims that Trump's campaign manager grabbed her arm "too hard" on March 8, 2016.  Let's at least get our facts right.

And, again, realize this: the more dishonest press that Trump gets, the more his voters increase.  You should, therefore, tread lightly if you are opposed to Trump.  Oppose him. . . but oppose him intelligently.  People can tell when you are just foaming at the mouth.

Wow. Steve you should really take a step back here. I heard about this last week.

Not yesterday.

The allegation was out there all along but Trump was able to deny any wrong doing because the video had not been leaked. They trapped him into denying something so they could release the video after. The girl had bruises on her arm. There were multiple witnesses.

From the 12th.

from the 11th.

[bskeptic]

According to what you quoted there were 4 Syrians and 1 American in the "31 people had been identified as being involved in the violence". 4:1 is hardly a "vast majority" - and there were two Germans as well.

What are you talking about? This isn't just about Syrians vs Americans.

You aren't addressing what I actually said:

The vast majority of the problem (it seems) was created by recent refugees/illegals from North Africa and the Middle East. So I would focus on that rather than Western nations.

That's because you have inbuilt prejudice against Muslims and Arabs. I wonder why?

Well in this case, the problem is mostly coming from Muslim nations like Algeria and Morocco and some others. We don't know the religion of the American apparently involved.

But yeah, as it's mostly a problem coming from North Africa and the Middle East, (illegals/refugees), I think it's fair to focus on North Africa and the Middle East.

If you stopped all Americans coming, you would lose tourist money etc. Stopping illegals doesn't have that problem. Of course if the American in question was an illegal immigrant (it's possible) then by all means stop American illegals also.

The Cologne issue was mostly about the alleged sexual assaults as you acknowledge. You are being obtuse to deny the fact, that no asylum seekers were involved in sexual assaults, is not significant.

Again: it's completely dishonest of you to try to blame me for not quoting one sentence, when I didn't need to quote that sentence to refute you, and it doesn't change the fact that your statement was misleading. Sexual assaults may be important to the story, but they weren't the only part of the story, and they weren't what you yourself mentioned. You can't just pick out a random sentence from the article and blame me for not quoting it!

Also...

"Among 32 suspects identified as of Friday night, he said, were 22 people registered as asylum seekers, revising an earlier figure of 18. The identified suspects included 17 people from Algeria and Morocco, as well as three Germans and one U.S. citizen. another 44 suspected assailants hadn’t been identified, he said."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-says-asylum-seekers-among-suspects-in-cologne-new-years-eve-assaults-1452253734


So a lot of people haven't been identified. We don't know if they are asylum seekers or not or what they are accused of doing.

And also:


"A 26-year-old Algerian man has become the first person arrested in connection with a string of sexual assaults during New Year’s Eve celebrations in Cologne that sparked a debate about Germany’s ability to integrate migrants.

Prosecutors said on Monday the unidentified asylum seeker had been arrested at a refugee home in the nearby town of Kerpen over the weekend. He is accused of groping a woman and robbing her phone, the prosecutor’s office spokesma,n Ulrich Bremer, told the Associated Press."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/18/cologne-attacks-algerian-asylum-seeker-arrested-new-years-eve-assaults

[Steve B]

Wow. Steve you should really take a step back here. I heard about this last week.

The issue is not when the allegation was made.  The issue when the evidence for the allegation was brought to public attention.  And here is, once again, the evidence for the allegation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

This evidence was finally released on March 13.

Do you think this evidence substantiates the original allegations?  Of course you don't. . . you're not an idiot.

[bskeptic]

That video seems to show... next to nothing really.

[Steve B]

That video seems to show... next to nothing really.

My thoughts exactly.

[lapwing]

That video seems to show... next to nothing really.

My thoughts exactly.

from bdsimon's "11th" link:
"The news outlet says the actual yanking incident is not on the video"

[bskeptic]

from bdsimon's "11th" link:
"The news outlet says the actual yanking incident is not on the video"

The video in question claims: "This seems to be new footage of the Trump campaign event in Jupiter, Florida Mar 8, 2016 showing Lewandowski grabbing Fields' arm."

[lapwing]

bskeptic,

The vast majority of the problem (it seems) was created by recent refugees/illegals from North Africa and the Middle East. So I would focus on that rather than Western nations.

"vast majority" Remember we're talking about a list of just 31 people. You're in danger of disappearing up your own hype on this one.
Knock knock: the asylum seekers/refugees are mostly coming from war affected areas: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan which coincidentally are countries who have benefited from recent western military intervention (or possible covert support in the case of Syria).

a person who has left their home country as a political refugee and is seeking asylum in another.

Sexual assaults may be important to the story, but they weren't the only part of the story, and they weren't what you yourself mentioned.

This is like you saying if I mentioned the John Kennedy assassination and then criticizing for me talking later about Lee Harvey Oswald. Cologne was all about the sexual assaults as you well know and you are clutching at non existent straws to pretend otherwise - the phrase "Cologne robbers" obviously includes the idea of the sexual assaults since that was what Cologne was all about.

The fact that you're now downplaying the 1 American, 2 Germans and 1 Serb in that group shows that this is just part of your anti-Arab, anti-Muslim agenda.

Have you heard of the Mafia? How many people have they murdered in the USA? Does that mean USA should bar all Sicilians and Italians? And there are other organised crime gangs.

[lapwing]

from bdsimon's "11th" link:
"The news outlet says the actual yanking incident is not on the video"

The video in question claims: "This seems to be new footage of the Trump campaign event in Jupiter, Florida Mar 8, 2016 showing Lewandowski grabbing Fields' arm."

Doesn't that mean there must be another video i.e. older footage. Where is that? I'm just trying to get to the truth of the matter.

There does seem to be some kind of arm grab here but it shouldn't really affect people's votes. I don't see why Lewandowski couldn't have just apologised rather than saying she was "delusional"- say it with flowers etc.

[bskeptic]

"vast majority" Remember we're talking about a list of just 31 people. You're in danger of disappearing up your own hype on this one.
Knock knock: the asylum seekers/refugees are mostly coming from war affected areas: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan which coincidentally are countries who have benefited from recent western military intervention (or possible covert support in the case of Syria).

How is this a response to what I said?

Is the vast majority of the problem (as far as we can tell) coming from North Africa and the Middle East or not? 

This is like you saying if I mentioned the John Kennedy assassination and then criticizing for me talking later about Lee Harvey Oswald. Cologne was all about the sexual assaults as you well know and you are clutching at non existent straws to pretend otherwise - the phrase "Cologne robbers" obviously includes the idea of the sexual assaults since that was what Cologne was all about.

Your statement was misleading. My use of quoted material was fine.

It's completely dishonest of you to try to blame me for not quoting one particular sentence. I just didn't need to quote that sentence in what I was doing.

And also, that was incomplete information anyway. You don't actually know that none of the sexual assaults was carried out by asylum seekers. How likely is that anyway? I just gave you a story that the first person arrested was an asylum seeker.

The fact that you're now downplaying the 1 American, 2 Germans and 1 Serb in that group shows that this is just part of your anti-Arab, anti-Muslim agenda.

From the info available, the problem is largely coming from North Africa and the Middle East illegals/refugees.

I'm not "downplaying" American involvement; it's just a case that it's very small anyway. Pointing that out doesn't mean I'm "downplaying" anything in an unfair way.

Have you heard of the Mafia? How many people have they murdered in the USA? Does that mean USA should bar all Sicilians and Italians? And there are other organised crime gangs.

Well that's up to the USA. In the case of North African etc. migrants we not only have the issue of criminal activity, but the issue we have no way of knowing whether they share Western values, and no way at the moment of imposing Western values on them. You shouldn't be letting people in if many of them may easily be traitors to our society.

[lapwing]

bskeptic,

So because the Mafia aren't specifically Muslim they're not important to you and you just discount them.

And btw what exactly is "the problem" you are so obsessed about. The Cologne robbers, the Cologne sexual assaulters, asylum seekers, "forinas", Muslims, people from Middle East and N Africa, people with brown skins?

Do you think it might be the case that there was ever a sexual assault or robbery anywhere done by anyone who wasn't a Muslim?

edit:

You shouldn't be letting people in if many of them may easily be traitors to our society.

You do realize that countries like UK and US have a long history of diversity.
How many different nationalities, ethnic groups, religions are represented in these countries? In how many countries do Britishers and Americans ex-pats live? How old is the oldest mosque in these 2 countries?

[Steve B]

Breaking News! Rubio Supporters Use Force Against Peaceful Protesters!

I can't believe this.  See it here for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxSgr3yYSY

This is Rubio's fault.  He created an environment for this sort of bad behavior by talking like a robot in the first place.  Rubio needs to take responsibility for this unruly behavior.

[bskeptic]

bskeptic,

So because the Mafia aren't specifically Muslim they're not important to you and you just discount them.

You said:

"Have you heard of the Mafia? How many people have they murdered in the USA? Does that mean USA should bar all Sicilians and Italians? And there are other organised crime gangs."

Let's imagine you could go back in time, to before the existence of the Mafia. Let's assume that Sicilians / Italians would not provide any great good to America, that you could not easily get elsewhere. Let's assume that the Mafia problem was an unusual and unique one, that you wouldn't get with other European groups. Let's assume that there was no practical way to filter out those that would create the problem from those that wouldn't.

In that case, yes, you could reasonably discriminate against all of them, and it may be worth doing.

You do realize that countries like UK and US have a long history of diversity.
How many different nationalities, ethnic groups, religions are represented in these countries?

What does that have to do with people being quite possibly traitors? If a particular ethnic group is less likely to integrate then you can fairly treat them differently.