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Apologetics and Theology

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bdsimon

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Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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lapwing

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2016, 05:26:16 PM »
bdsimon.

The first one gives a second hand news report in an article with lines like: "the disaster of Obamacare" - might it not be a bit biased (massive understatement).

It's harder to say the police are biased against Trump though:
Quote
Trump also asserted again that law enforcement advised him to cancel the event, despite the fact that Chicago’s police superintendent said he had nothing to do with the decision to delay, and in fact told the campaign that security could handle the crowds.

I have to say the "chaos" didn't look that chaotic - no more than a UK football crowd, though unusual in a political meeting e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mru_14vUFSI

from the 2nd article:
Quote
Organizers of the demonstration and Sanders said Saturday that the protest was not in any way officially affiliated with his campaign, despite claims from Trump on Twitter that it was “Clinton and Sanders people who disrupted my rally.”
But actually I'm getting the impression that apparently committed Christians don't care that Trump has no respect for truth or other civilized Christian values. Republicans are angry (though not poor cf many other countries) and will ignore all that since they've bought into Trump.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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bdsimon

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2016, 06:52:11 PM »
I know the first one was biased that's why I shared the liberal LA Times as well. Remember here that I am not a Trump fan or supporter but merely trying to set the record straight in this one case. Both articles support what I said about moveon.org and Trump said Bernie was behind it not me.

I personally think it was wise to cancel the rally whether Trump lied about it or not. I heard there were actually several thousand protesters. It could have gotten pretty ugly if Trump had actually showed up.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Soren

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2016, 07:16:54 PM »
I don't justify violence from anyone in the political discussion, but for you to claim that violence is a peculiarly left wing thing is a joke

According to the Fox News presenter (6:30) this was also happening on college campuses, only to conservative speakers on a fairly regular basis.

Would you agree or disagree with that comment? You may not know off the top of your head, but would it surprise you if conservatives were indeed being harassed in that way?
I am aware of left wing students trying to prevent conservative speakers from speaking on campuses, and I condemn that. There are a few speakers who are beyond the pale, neo-Nazis or whatever, but guys like Ben Shapiro, who is just a smug jerk, should be allowed to speak. Protest, ask hostile questions, sponsor counter-speakers, ignore them, or whatever you want, but trying to prevent their talks not only violates free speech but magnifies their importance way beyond what their content would otherwise justify. 

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Steve B

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2016, 07:33:30 PM »
I am aware of left wing students trying to prevent conservative speakers from speaking on campuses, and I condemn that. There are a few speakers who are beyond the pale, neo-Nazis or whatever, but guys like Ben Shapiro, who is just a smug jerk, should be allowed to speak. Protest, ask hostile questions, sponsor counter-speakers, ignore them, or whatever you want, but trying to prevent their talks not only violates free speech but magnifies their importance way beyond what their content would otherwise justify.

Right.  And that's the key.  There is a legal way to protest, and then there is an illegal way to protest.

If you don't like what someone is saying, protest in a way that is legal.  That does not include trying to silence them. The first amendment guarantees freedom of speech, not freedom from speech.

If you are employing protest methods that are designed to silence point of views you disagree with, then you are encroaching on first-amendment rights.

Remember. . . the first amendment was not ambiguously chosen.  It's not like the writers of the constitution took all the amendments and then drew them out of a hat to decide which amendment would be first, second, or third.  No. . . the first-amendment is the first amendment for a reason.  It fundamentally defines who we are as Americans-- and, I would argue, as a secular nation founded on very basic, Christian, principles of reasoning.

I mean. . . just look at all of the atheists we have on this forum.  We don't kick them out, or try to silence them, for a reason.  That's not how we would want to be treated.

We only remove them when they start making personal attacks.  But we have removed self-identifying Christians for making personal attacks also.  The moderators here have been extremely fair-minded.

The point is.  We should not give illegal protesters a tail wind.  I know it makes for good TV ratings. . . but it is absolute poison to the kind of society that our founders envisioned.  I absolutely guarantee you that using such illegal methods of protest are only going to add fuel to the fire of Trump's movement-- because they represent perfectly what Trump is raising his voice against: a petulant PC policing public who act like children whenever they deal with ideas that they disagree with.

I would, in all honesty, much rather see minds changed based on Trump's economic stances.  Or his stances on the conflict of interest between voter interest's and and the special interest groups.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 08:05:44 PM by Steve B »

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Soren

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2016, 08:22:46 PM »
I am aware of left wing students trying to prevent conservative speakers from speaking on campuses, and I condemn that. There are a few speakers who are beyond the pale, neo-Nazis or whatever, but guys like Ben Shapiro, who is just a smug jerk, should be allowed to speak. Protest, ask hostile questions, sponsor counter-speakers, ignore them, or whatever you want, but trying to prevent their talks not only violates free speech but magnifies their importance way beyond what their content would otherwise justify.

Right.  And that's the key.  There is a legal way to protest, and then there is an illegal way to protest.

If you don't like what someone is saying, protest in a way that is legal.  That does not include trying to silence them. The first amendment guarantees freedom of speech, not freedom from speech.

If you are employing protest methods that are designed to silence point of views you disagree with, then you are encroaching on first-amendment rights.

Remember. . . the first amendment was not ambiguously chosen.  It's not like the writers of the constitution took all the amendments and then drew them out of a hat to decide which amendment would be first, second, or third.  No. . . the first-amendment is the first amendment for a reason.  It fundamentally defines who we are as Americans-- and, I would argue, as a secular nation founded on very basic, Christian, principles of reasoning.

I mean. . . just look at all of the atheists we have on this forum.  We don't kick them out, or try to silence them, for a reason.  That's not how we would want to be treated.

We only remove them when they start making personal attacks.  But we have removed self-identifying Christians for making personal attacks also.  The moderators here have been extremely fair-minded.

The point is.  We should not give illegal protesters a tail wind.  I know it makes for good TV ratings. . . but it is absolute poison to the kind of society that our founders envisioned.  I absolutely guarantee you that using such illegal methods of protest are only going to add fuel to the fire of Trump's movement-- because they represent perfectly what Trump is raising his voice against: a petulant PC policing public who act like children whenever they deal with ideas that they disagree with.

I would, in all honesty, much rather see minds changed based on Trump's economic stances.  Or his stances on the conflict of interest between voter interest's and and the special interest groups.
But you are trivializing a serious issue by only giving one side of it and trying to use it to score political points. There are many instances of Trump encouraging violence against protesters at his rallies in a manner unprecedented in modern presidential campaigns; his campaign manager just physically accosted a female reporter. If you can't acknowledge Trump's culpability here, it's hard to take you seriously on this issue.

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Steve B

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2016, 08:59:57 PM »
his campaign manager just physically accosted a female reporter. If you can't acknowledge Trump's culpability here, it's hard to take you seriously on this issue.

You are claiming something as fact when it is in contest.  It's just another desperate drive by media hit job a day before people have to vote.

See here to understand what your allegation is actually based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

Again.  It is baseless, hyper-sensitive, allegations such as these that are fanning the flames of the Trump movement.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 09:15:50 PM by Steve B »

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wilsunphi

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2016, 12:05:50 AM »
his campaign manager just physically accosted a female reporter. If you can't acknowledge Trump's culpability here, it's hard to take you seriously on this issue.

You are claiming something as fact when it is in contest.  It's just another desperate drive by media hit job a day before people have to vote.

See here to understand what your allegation is actually based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

Again.  It is baseless, hyper-sensitive, allegations such as these that are fanning the flames of the Trump movement.

SteveB,
you are spinning the issue. This is how the issue turned out. Breitbart is a very pro Trump news organization (along with Drudge one of the organization that actually created this Trump phenomenon.). This girl is actually a conservative reporter. This is how the events transpired.

1) The above incident happens.

2) The girl or Breitbart does not report it (the girl position is she did not see who pulled her). Instead the liberal news media reports it. They call out Breitbart for not standing with its reporter.

3) Breitbart and this girl is shamed into admitting the incident. Also asks Trump a very weak apology (with lots of ifs and buts) to save face. Even tries to claim it may not have been Trump's person who pulled her.

4) Seeing that there aren't any videos of the incident. Trump campaign goes on air accusing the girl of lying and being an attention seeker. (They bring up past incidents of the girl where she was manhandled when reporting occupy wall street. There are photo evidence from that time in favor of the girl.) 

5) They claim that since even after a day the girl has not filed a police complaint, she is lying. Trump himself implies the same on national television.

6) The girl is shamed into filing police complaint.

7) The liberal media starts releasing the other evidences.

In conclusion. Trump does not have a cause or ideology. There is a monarch and and there are his subjects. Anyone opposing the monarch are traitors. Breitbart should have had lot of goodwill with Trump (Trump himself have praised them before). This girl had been fighting for the conservative cause when Trump was funding liberals. If Trump had kept quiet the event would have passed. But when time came he threw them under the bus.

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Steve B

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2016, 12:53:14 AM »

SteveB,
you are spinning the issue.

I stopped reading here.  I'm not spinning the issue. Uncoincidentally . . . the allegation is being brought to the media 24 hours before its time to vote.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 01:08:49 AM by Steve B »

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wilsunphi

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2016, 01:00:16 AM »

SteveB,
you are spinning the issue.

I stopped reading here.  I'm not spinning the issue. Incoincidentially . . . the allegation is being brought to the media 24 hours before its time to vote.

As i recall the allegation has been on the media from thursday-friday. So like 5 days from voting.

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Steve B

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2016, 01:10:08 AM »

As i recall the allegation has been on the media from thursday-friday. So like 5 days from voting.

No.  Here is the footage where the allegation stems from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

It was released within the past 24 hours.  The woman in the video claims her arm was grabbed "too hard."
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 01:31:33 AM by Steve B »

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wilsunphi

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2016, 01:17:54 AM »
I saw the video from the previous post. It was not shot within the past 24 hrs only uploaded within the past 24 hrs. There were other videos from 2 days back. The girl has released pics of her bruises. Pls read my post from before. You will realize that the girl tried to sweep this under the rug. It was the liberal media and Trump's own lying and maligning her in response that forced her to act.

There were other thuggish behavior reported from the Trump campaign. During a debate interval, the same Trump manager went and spoke with Trump (which was not allowed according to the rules). The Fox news guys intervened and asked him to leave. He simply refused. Because of this they had to tell the other candidates that they too are allowed to meet their campaign manager to make it fair. (Btw it seems both of them were conspiring to fake a fax from BBB about the Trump university.)

Edit: It seems Ben Shapiro has resigned from Breitbart in protest of their not defending Michelle Fields against Trump's allegations.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 01:26:07 AM by wilsunphi »

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Steve B

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2016, 01:27:57 AM »
I saw the video from the previous post. It was not shot within the past 24 hrs only uploaded within the past 24 hrs.

Wrong.  This is an allegation that has only come into existence since March 13.  The footage goes back to march 8.  But the footage was only released on March 13 when the allegation came out.  The timing smacks of the political opportunism.

The woman in the video claims that Trump's campaign manager grabbed her arm "too hard" on March 8, 2016.  Let's at least get our facts right.

And, again, realize this: the more dishonest press that Trump gets, the more his voters increase.  You should, therefore, tread lightly if you are opposed to Trump.  Oppose him. . . but oppose him intelligently.  People can tell when you are just foaming at the mouth.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 01:48:11 AM by Steve B »

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wilsunphi

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2016, 01:47:24 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab-kgOgvfN8

Video of Trump himself defending his guy. Pls see the date it was published.

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Steve B

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Re: My Heart Breaks for Chicago
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2016, 01:52:00 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab-kgOgvfN8

Video of Trump himself defending his guy. Pls see the date it was published.

Again.  The video footage upon which the allegations against Trump's campaign manager is made can be seen here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry3LB2KaSI

This footage was only just now released on March 13.  Your link is connected to footage that has nothing to do with the the actual basis of the allegation itself.

Again, it's a classic "media hit job."  I doubt any intelligent voter will be dissuaded by it.  And, more probably, they will come closer to Trump's camp because of how obviously dishonest, and convenient, the accusation is.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 02:50:59 AM by Steve B »