My Heart Breaks for Chicago

[Steve B]

Although i agree that at that point cancelling was the right decision, from what i read the police did not ask Trump to cancel the rally.

CPD spokesman Anthony Guglielmi tells The Associated Press that the department never told the Trump campaign there was a security threat at the University of Illinois at Chicago venue. He said the department had sufficient manpower on the scene to handle any situation.

Just to compare with how Ted Cruz handles such disruptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QCbpafD3Pw

Ted Cruz was telling a few pork pies to the woman with the anti-nuclear placard. Credit to him for giving her a voice, though. I don't think she was a plant.

There is a reason why Trump is not capable of responding to protesters in the same way that Cruz is. 

Here is the reason:

https://youtu.be/4lH2vuaN384?t=387

You only need to watch for 60 seconds.  You don't have to watch the whole thing.

[bdsimon]

On the Chicago rally one has to beware of the Orgreave strategy: reverse the order of events and so make out that striking miners attacked mounted police first, when in fact the police were the first aggressors and tried to ride the miners down. I'm not saying that is the case here, but given that political capital is being made out of it, it is better to be sceptical about the truth of what actually happened. Facts can get twisted, especially if people are saying they were "Clinton/Sanders supporters".

The protests were organized by moveon.org. There is video of protesters punching Trump supporters. Unless of course you are suggesting that Trump has infiltrated moveon.org and masterminded the whole thing to make the liberals look bad which seems unlikely since he can't grasp foreign policy related to Cuba.

But I suppose it is possible.

[Steve B]

[Trump] can't grasp foreign policy related to Cuba.

You have to understand "the Art of the Deal."  Trump is setting himself up so he can walk into the room and then say something like this, "ya know, everyone criticized me because I thought it might be possible for us to get along.  They all said you are too unreasonable to get along with.  Are you going to prove my critics right?"

Read his book.  He knows how to run negotiations.  It's not that I disagree with Cruz, or Kasich, or Rubio on their foreign policy with regard to Cuba.  It's just that I can see what Trump is doing-- and I find it to be genius in its nature.

[wilsunphi]

Although i agree that at that point cancelling was the right decision, from what i read the police did not ask Trump to cancel the rally.

CPD spokesman Anthony Guglielmi tells The Associated Press that the department never told the Trump campaign there was a security threat at the University of Illinois at Chicago venue. He said the department had sufficient manpower on the scene to handle any situation.

Just to compare with how Ted Cruz handles such disruptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QCbpafD3Pw

Ted Cruz was telling a few pork pies to the woman with the anti-nuclear placard. Credit to him for giving her a voice, though. I don't think she was a plant.

The woman's name is Medea Benjamin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_Benjamin). She is a professional in protesting and crashing into others' events with her crowd like she did here. She even ran for US senate. All the more credit to Ted Cruz for handling her beautifully.

[wilsunphi]

There is a reason why Trump is not capable of responding to protesters in the same way that Cruz is. 

Here is the reason:

https://youtu.be/4lH2vuaN384?t=387

You only need to watch for 60 seconds.  You don't have to watch the whole thing.

Is he seriously telling that he cannot organize townhall meetings?

Anyway even granting that what i have not seen so far is Trump addressing any issue in depth. That is what i think bdsimon is also telling. He can thrown in random facts to show some of the mistakes of others and say we got to have good this or that. But he never addresses the full issue i.e. he does not give us a feeling that he knows reasonable amount of facts about the overall issue.

That is what i think a major difference with Cruz. When questioned about anything he is able stand his ground and go in depth, as shown by the Iowa farmer question.

[Steve B]

There is a reason why Trump is not capable of responding to protesters in the same way that Cruz is. 

Here is the reason:

https://youtu.be/4lH2vuaN384?t=387

You only need to watch for 60 seconds.  You don't have to watch the whole thing.

Is he seriously telling that he cannot organize townhall meetings?

Anyway even granting that what i have not seen so far is Trump addressing any issue in depth.

He's saying that he can't organize town hall meetings without excluding tens of thousands of people.

And Trump has addressed particular issues.  I've tried to bring them up in previous threads.  But sincere discussion of particular issues are always dogged by opposition slogans that have nothing to do with the actual topics that Trump raises.  There seems to be a culture of refusing to talk about the very specific issues.

[bskeptic]

And if you say what difference does that make, they are still Arab/Muslim/brown skinned just remember that occasionally white people commit crimes as well.

If people are brown or white it doesn't matter. if they come into your country to carry out crimes then they should be brutally punished.

[Steve B]

If people are brown or white it doesn't matter. if they come into your country to carry out crimes then they should be brutally punished.

I, personally, think think crimes should be dealt with proportionally.  lex talionis.

[bskeptic]

Yeah, let's not talk about Trump's security guys roughing up protesters and reporters, or Trump saying he wanted to punch a protester in the face to roars of approval from the crowd

What I think you are talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugvZu91YHs4

He probably should have been more careful with his language on that one, but he was talking about a situation (he assumed at least) where someone was there to cause violence and throwing punches at people. Now in that situation, should you not be able to use robust force to deal with them?

If anyone is trying to disrupt a political rally, then it's fair enough that they get dragged out. And if they are throwing punches etc., then I really wouldn't have much sympathy for them if they get punched back.

So I don't think Trump said anything that bad in that case, even if his language could be faulted for its tone.

I would say you could find much more dangerous rhetoric on the left when it comes to police shootings or over Israel.

as GotTheGift points out. I don't justify violence from anyone in the political discussion, but for you to claim that violence is a peculiarly left wing thing is a joke

Obviously political violence isn't unique to only one side. But are right wingers trying to disrupt Democrat rallies in the same way?

I don't see that as "free speech" by the way. I see that as one side trying to stop the free speech of the other side. You can have a protest if you want. But you don't need to disrupt what other people are doing.

[bskeptic]

I, personally, think think crimes should be dealt with proportionally.  lex talionis.

I agree. And I think some crimes are serious enough that they deserve brutal retribution.

e.g. on a "proportional" basis, you can easily justify the death penalty or indeed corporal punishment for certain crimes. (No one could really object that the punishment went further than the seriousness of the original crime.) In fact, you could justify maiming people. Now I wouldn't go that far, (maiming) but I'm just pointing out that it could be justified with regard to proportionality.

[bskeptic]

Btw you do know that the Cologne robbers were not refugees from Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan, but were mostly a semi-organised gang from Morocco who were already resident in Germany. #justsaying

That's not exactly correct it seems.

Quote:

"Earlier, the German interior ministry said 31 people had been identified as being involved in the violence, of whom 18 were asylum seekers suspected of crimes ranging from theft to assault."

"Plate said the vast majority of the criminal acts documented by federal police on the night were related to theft and bodily injury. Three were related to sexual assaults, but police had no names linked to them.

Of the 31 people identified, nine were Algerian, eight Moroccan, five Iranian, four Syrian and two German, plus an Iraqi, a Serb and a US citizen."

"Victims have described their attackers as being Arab or north African in appearance but a Cologne lawyer joined a growing number of people on Thursday who insisted the description was incomplete.

“Clients I’ve spoken to who were there at the station to peacefully see in the new year say that there were also Albanian, Kurds, Montenegrins, Syrians and Iraqis involved in the tumult,” said Mehdi Labidi, a Tunisian-German."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/cologne-violence-suspects-include-asylum-seekers

[bdsimon]

[Trump] can't grasp foreign policy related to Cuba.

You have to understand "the Art of the Deal."  Trump is setting himself up so he can walk into the room and then say something like this, "ya know, everyone criticized me because I thought it might be possible for us to get along.  They all said you are too unreasonable to get along with.  Are you going to prove my critics right?"

Read his book.  He knows how to run negotiations.  It's not that I disagree with Cruz, or Kasich, or Rubio on their foreign policy with regard to Cuba.  It's just that I can see what Trump is doing-- and I find it to be genius in its nature.

Steve,

I have no problem with you supporting Trump. People disagree on things and that's okay. The Cuba question the other night showed that Trump either agrees with Obama foreign policy on this or simply has no in depth understanding of the issue. This was highlighted in Rubio's reply. This is another area where he departs from conservative views. There are many as I detailed the other day.

The point here though is that Trump and his people had nothing to do with the moveon.org protests in Chicago or the Bernie protests in KC last night as lapwing seemed to be suggesting. There is online evidence of the movement within moveon to try to stop Trump, especially at that university, in advance of the rally. There is also videos depicting conflicts between the two groups where punches are thrown after heated arguments and the punches came from the protesters.

There seems to be some though on some peoples' part that liberal supporters can't be violent. They seem to forget Ferguson and the Occupy movement. Typically this is justified in the liberal's view since Ferguson and Occupy were both protesting injustice so it is okay to be violent then.

[bskeptic]

I don't justify violence from anyone in the political discussion, but for you to claim that violence is a peculiarly left wing thing is a joke

According to the Fox News presenter (6:30) this was also happening on college campuses, only to conservative speakers on a fairly regular basis.

Would you agree or disagree with that comment? You may not know off the top of your head, but would it surprise you if conservatives were indeed being harassed in that way?

[lapwing]

Although i agree that at that point cancelling was the right decision, from what i read the police did not ask Trump to cancel the rally.

CPD spokesman Anthony Guglielmi tells The Associated Press that the department never told the Trump campaign there was a security threat at the University of Illinois at Chicago venue. He said the department had sufficient manpower on the scene to handle any situation.

Just to compare with how Ted Cruz handles such disruptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QCbpafD3Pw

Ted Cruz was telling a few pork pies to the woman with the anti-nuclear placard. Credit to him for giving her a voice, though. I don't think she was a plant.

There is a reason why Trump is not capable of responding to protesters in the same way that Cruz is. 

Here is the reason:

https://youtu.be/4lH2vuaN384?t=387

You only need to watch for 60 seconds.  You don't have to watch the whole thing.

Why not be clear about what you mean Steve? "let your yes be yes"

[lapwing]

Although i agree that at that point cancelling was the right decision, from what i read the police did not ask Trump to cancel the rally.

CPD spokesman Anthony Guglielmi tells The Associated Press that the department never told the Trump campaign there was a security threat at the University of Illinois at Chicago venue. He said the department had sufficient manpower on the scene to handle any situation.

Just to compare with how Ted Cruz handles such disruptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QCbpafD3Pw

Ted Cruz was telling a few pork pies to the woman with the anti-nuclear placard. Credit to him for giving her a voice, though. I don't think she was a plant.

The woman's name is Medea Benjamin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_Benjamin). She is a professional in protesting and crashing into others' events with her crowd like she did here. She even ran for US senate. All the more credit to Ted Cruz for handling her beautifully.

Genetic fallacy. Isn't she a member of the US public and isn't Cruz supposed to be talking to the public?
"crashing" I didn't see any violence. Is any peaceful protest banned in the US?

And what has this to do with Cruz saying things that aren't true?

1. The Houthis are fighting a civil war in Yemen. Yemen is nowhere near Israel or the US. So why are the Houthis going to be "murdering" Americans and Israelis as their objective? Notice he didn't mention US support for Saudi Arabia.

2. When have Ayatollah Khamenei and President Rouhani said explicitly that Iran is developing nuclear weapons?

Iran’s president said on Saturday the Islamic Republic has decided not to develop nuclear weapons out of principle, not only because it is prevented from doing so by treaties.

from http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/rouhani-iran-nuclear-weapons-principle

Note the issue here is not whether Rouhani is lying but about Rouhani's public statements on nuclear weapons. One could ask whether Cruz lied on this occasion though.