My Heart Breaks for Chicago

[lapwing]

That's not exactly correct it seems.

Ok I should have said Moroccan and Algerian. But the basic point still stands. The right wing xenophobic press was implying this was caused by letting in refugees from Syria, but the facts did not bear this out.

From the article you linked:

None of the asylum seekers was suspected of committing sexual assaults of the kind that prompted outrage in Germany over the past week.

odd how you missed that bit out, bskeptic!

In Cologne, police said the men appeared to have come from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia and were on average in their mid-20s. They had gathered on the square in front of the main train station next to the city’s towering Gothic cathedral and smaller groups of men appeared to repeatedly leave the group to target female revellers, many of whom had arrived via train from the provinces around Cologne to celebrate the new year in the city.

from http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks

Police evidence of a heavy Moroccan and Algerian criminal gang presence in the assaulting hordes suggests this is a problem of longer-standing migrant populations and not exclusively, or even mostly, of newer arrivals like Syrians or Iraqis

from http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/01/19/cologne-attacks-this-is-sexual-terrorism-directed-towards-women/

[lapwing]

But are right wingers trying to disrupt Democrat rallies in the same way?

Aren't they too busy fighting each other right now?

If Sanders were to win the nomination you might see some right wing protests. After all the guy actually says the word "socialist"?

[bskeptic]

Ok I should have said Moroccan and Algerian. But the basic point still stands. The right wing xenophobic press was implying this was caused by letting in refugees from Syria, but the facts did not bear this out.

It was part caused by letting people in from Syria. Part caused by previous liberal immigration policy. Doesn't make that much difference that I can see.

odd how you missed that bit out, bskeptic!

odd how you missed out syrian involvement in the crimes.

[lapwing]

odd how you missed out Syrian involvement in the crimes.

I was quoting from memory you were selectively quoting from a news article that you had presumably read online. Do you see the difference? Also, two wrongs don't make a right and don't change the fact you were being deliberately selective.

And the impression being given is that the trouble was started by the organised gangs- so "caused" by Syrians is deceptive and inaccurate.

[bskeptic]

I was quoting from memory

Well your claim was still wrong or at least misleading. Syrians were indeed a part of the problem (apparently.)

you were selectively quoting from a news article that you had presumably read online. Do you see the difference? Also, two wrongs don't make a right and don't change the fact you were being deliberately selective.

That's nonsense. Just complete and utter nonsense. I don't have to quote the whole thing, or any particular part of it that you think should be quoted. I wasn't being "deliberately selective". I linked to an article that anyone could read. What I quoted was a fair representation of the material. I wasn't quoting anything "out of context".

You were talking about "robbers" so I wasn't even focused on the issue of sexual assault. You are blaming me for not mentioning something when it wasn't even the issue you started talking about? That's completely dishonest. You can't just pick something random out of a news story, and say, "well you didn't quote that part", "you are being deliberately selective". No, I didn't quote that part because it wasn't that relevant and I didn't need to quote it.

And the impression being given is that the trouble was started by the organised gangs- so "caused" by Syrians is deceptive and inaccurate.

Your original claim was misleading. It's as simple as that. And I said "part caused" which is to say, that some of them were involved.

[lapwing]

bskeptic,

"caused" is not the same as "involved"

The evidence that has come out indicates that the trouble was started by organised gangs from Morocco and Algeria, not Syria

According to your quoted figures if it "was part caused by letting people in from Syria", it was part caused by letting people in from USA. That's why it's better to focus on the organised gangs who started the trouble.

Maybe Germany should ban all Americans until the government sorts this out!

Also, you're being deliberately obtuse to ignore the fact that most of the outrage about the incident was about sexual assaults, not robbery.

[bskeptic]

Also, you're being deliberately obtuse to ignore the fact that most of the outrage about the incident was about sexual assaults, not robbery.

That may be so, but it isn't what you started talking about. You can't blame me for not mentioning something when it wasn't even the issue you started off!

[lapwing]

Also, you're being deliberately obtuse to ignore the fact that most of the outrage about the incident was about sexual assaults, not robbery.

That may be so, but it isn't what you started talking about. You can't blame me for not mentioning something when it wasn't even the issue you started off!

The issue of the "Cologne robbers" includes the sexual assaults since that was what all the media fuss was about.

"Pickpocketting at New Year celebrations" wouldn't have been such a big story.

So do you think Germany should stop letting Americans in then?

[bskeptic]

Also:

“overwhelming majority of suspects arrived in Germany in 2015."   

http://www.thelocal.de/20160215/reports-of-three-refugees-in-cologne-attacks-wrong

[bskeptic]

The issue of the "Cologne robbers" includes the sexual assaults since that was what all the media fuss was about.

This is what you said:

Btw you do know that the Cologne robbers were not refugees from Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan

And that's what I responded to. I'm not blameworthy for not quoting some particular sentence in the article! OK?

That's utterly dishonest of you to try that.

The issue was "Cologne robbers". Not specifically the sex assault side of it, even if that is indeed a big side of the story.

So do you think Germany should stop letting Americans in then?

The vast majority of the problem (it seems) was created by recent refugees/illegals from North Africa and the Middle East. So I would focus on that rather than Western nations.

[lapwing]

bskeptic,

The vast majority of the problem

According to what you quoted there were 4 Syrians and 1 American in the "31 people had been identified as being involved in the violence". 4:1 is hardly a "vast majority" - and there were two Germans as well.

So I would focus on that rather than Western nations

That's because you have inbuilt prejudice against Muslims and Arabs. I wonder why?

The issue was "Cologne robbers".

The Cologne issue was mostly about the alleged sexual assaults as you acknowledge. You are being obtuse to deny the fact, that no asylum seekers were involved in sexual assaults, is not significant.

[bdsimon]

You guys are way in the weeds relative to the topic.

[lapwing]

I mentioned Cologne because it was an instance when the initial press coverage gave a false impression to feed extreme right wing xenophobic narratives (these Syrians we're letting in will rape our women etc.)

I also mentioned the infamous "battle of Orgreave" where the BBC reversed the order of the footage in their support of the Thatcher government's assault on the miners and trade unions generally.

bskeptic chose to make an issue of the first and not the second. You have to wonder why.

[bdsimon]

I understand why you mentioned it and I trust this has happened before. However, in this case there is clear evidence that moveon organized this in advance and plan to do it again.

[lapwing]

My point was that if you have two people A and B. A punches B, the cameras start rolling and film B punching A back. Conclusion from media coverage: B is violent and A is innocent.

These articles suggest this campaign is dissolving into a mess all round - God help America!

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/12/donald-trump-rally-called-off-in-chicago-amid-protests-violence-and-chaos

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/12/sanders-attacks-trump-vicious-campaign-chicago-backlash

No mention of moveon.org just that there were some "signs of support" for Sanders. It doesn't mean Sanders hired them.

This illustrates the issue in an amusing way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqy_3YbSt_w&ebc=ANyPxKonVevrDeRKGzyPfYqBEIlEANyz0BPrMilaEwnoIjTglSKeKJpocjMA2caYD2DX5lPIjh-mJ-nyIUY3dvCvXT-nzMS_fw