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Apologetics and Theology

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Moot

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2016, 05:37:40 PM »
Yup.  Guess you now have a choice: repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness, or choose the way of Satan.  I'll leave it up to you.

Satan will be really dissapointed if I repent.

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2016, 05:44:44 PM »
Moot,

Actually, Satan doesn't care about you at all.  Satan won't be disappointed.  You are absolutely nothing to Satan, and that's the point. 

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apophenia

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2016, 05:46:39 PM »
I don't think I got a good deal when I sold my soul to Satan.  Do you think if I threatened to convert that I could get him to renegotiate?
--

Tonto say, "Both sides strong when in their own camp."

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Moot

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2016, 05:48:53 PM »
Moot,

Actually, Satan doesn't care about you at all.  Satan won't be disappointed.  You are absolutely nothing to Satan, and that's the point.

No, I think he loves me.

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Hawke123

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2016, 05:59:40 PM »
This thread is becoming weird...
"A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." -- Tyrion Lannister

“It is always so much easier to attack someone else's position than to create and defend your own.” – Glenn Miller

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searcherman

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2016, 09:42:30 PM »
From previous discussions on this here at RF, I'd say that evangelical atheists are attempting to spread truth and deconvert theists because they believe that religion hinders flourishing and we're all better off without it.

People are leaving religion on their own. We can't keep up with "ministering" to those who leave it. Any "atheist" that goes out to "deconvert" is just intellectually showing off, wasting his GD time. They should pull up their sleeves and deal with those newly nonreligious, and help put them on an humanist path, devoid of other irrationalities that creep in, like conspiracy theories, New Atheist scientism, antitheism, objectivism, ufo and new age stuff and nihilistic anarchism.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 09:50:13 PM by searcherman »
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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Philip Rand

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2016, 12:17:04 AM »
Nelvan... your OP is very good...

I think it highlights something important... "How does the individual deal with unavoidable suffering?"

For the Christian... one would accept unavoidable suffering with dignity as this does have meaning, i.e. Crucifixion.

For the Atheist... he has the right to end his life. 

Here, something most interesting occurs... for example the Swiss euthanasia company that calls itself DIGNITAS, i.e. meaning in self-death, the end of suffering by avoidance of suffering... an inversion of the Christian conception of dignity in light of unavoidable suffering...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 03:13:43 AM by Philip Rand »
A lover of horses and Mozart.

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Questions11

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2016, 02:49:30 AM »
Searcherman:
And yet sooo many are out trying to find the world of religion, one fbook post at a t ime, one law at a time, one act of Christianophobia at a time.

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dalapto

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2016, 03:46:05 AM »
OP constructs a small strawman, you should ask a question instead of presuming the atheist motives before arguing against it. Unless you yourself once were an atheistic preacher and/or prophet!

Atheism gives a universe and world with no hope, no purpose and no meaning.
Any purpose you make is a result of your imagination and is constructed by your mind therefore is purposeless, meaningless and illusory.
Everything will be destroyed eventually, including humans. Energy will no longer exist as we know and use it.
There is no ultimate justice for those who get away with crimes, they can easily escape into oblivion.

Why tell somebody who is dying:
"There's nothing after you die, it'll just be like sleeping"
Are you certain? Have you died before?
"It's better than lying about a fictional paradise"
How do you know?
Isn't nothingness another fictional paradise for others?
A perfect escape for criminals and people who suffer in their current existence!
 
Why remove all hope and purpose when you simply can't know 100%?

Thanks.
Jesus is more reliable than Pythagoras.

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Prommie

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2016, 05:02:00 AM »
OP constructs a small strawman, you should ask a question instead of presuming the atheist motives before arguing against it. Unless you yourself once were an atheistic preacher and/or prophet!

Atheism gives a universe and world with no hope, no purpose and no meaning.
Any purpose you make is a result of your imagination and is constructed by your mind therefore is purposeless, meaningless and illusory.
Everything will be destroyed eventually, including humans. Energy will no longer exist as we know and use it.
There is no ultimate justice for those who get away with crimes, they can easily escape into oblivion.

Why tell somebody who is dying:
"There's nothing after you die, it'll just be like sleeping"
Are you certain? Have you died before?
"It's better than lying about a fictional paradise"
How do you know?
Isn't nothingness another fictional paradise for others?
A perfect escape for criminals and people who suffer in their current existence!
 
Why remove all hope and purpose when you simply can't know 100%?

Thanks.
It's nice that you recognize the OP sets up a straw man, it's unfortunate that you do that yourself as well. I think most atheists do think life is meaningful.
For me if I were the atheist in the OP I would not be bothered by my cell mate being wrong, I would be bothered if he keeps trying to convince me to believe his nonsense or if he would start performing rituals that impact the little freedom I have. And maybe I would start a discussion just to pass the time.

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dalapto

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2016, 07:28:04 AM »
It's nice that you recognize the OP sets up a straw man, it's unfortunate that you do that yourself as well. I think most atheists do think life is meaningful.
For me if I were the atheist in the OP I would not be bothered by my cell mate being wrong, I would be bothered if he keeps trying to convince me to believe his nonsense or if he would start performing rituals that impact the little freedom I have. And maybe I would start a discussion just to pass the time.
It's not a strawman - atheism as a world view does not have a meaning.

"Atheism gives a universe and world with no hope, no purpose and no meaning."
Atheism the world view. Not atheists the humans.
Sure atheists can say they have meaning - but does it really have meaning? It's just an assertion of opinion:
"I believe the purpose of my life is to start a family."
What if your wife doesn't want kids? What if her purpose is NOT to start a family?
Do you change your meaning to fit hers or divorce her? Does your new meaning have as much as the old meaning?

Ultimately the universe doesn't care what you do with your life.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 07:35:49 AM by dalapto »
Jesus is more reliable than Pythagoras.

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2016, 08:17:55 AM »
Dalapto and prommie,

Can you state clearly how I committed a strawman.  I agree that atheism gives no meaning at all.  I'm not sure how the OP denies this.

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2016, 08:35:34 AM »
Philip Rand,

It's good you bring up the point of assisted suicide.  I noticed that when I have been very sick in the past, my friends will treat me slightly different.  It is only natural.  I don't blame them.  I notice they will invite me out to eat or to a bar, the movies, whateve, when they see I'm sick, they will cancel and move on.  I suspect they call someone else, find a substitute or an alternative.  What they should do is visit me anyway and bring me medicine or chicken soup.  At least stay on the phone a few minutes instead of saying, "Aww, your sick.  That's too bad.  Alright, I'll let you rest.  Bye."

My wife brought up the topic of assisted suicide.  That got me thinking.  It seems like the humane thing to do.  But when you think about it, that means you are only a worthy individual when you are healthy.  It is like saying you are only worthy if you have good looks or make lots of money.  But as marriage vows go:  for better or worse, richer or poor, health or sickness.  Or in good times and bad times.
 
Being sick, having cancer, being disabled, suffering in excruciating pain, that's all of who I am too.  Those are no lesser me or inferior me.  No, I am worthy and an individual no matter what.  If I deny suffering, I deny part of who I am.  I deny my individuality, and if I deny my own individuality, I deny it in others.

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dalapto

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2016, 11:07:30 AM »
Perhaps the atheist believes that his friend is deluded and needs to know the truth.
Maybe I'm misusing the term strawman but I don't think all atheists simply care about  society and not the individual.
However, maybe they shouldn't care about the individual if they were true atheistic naturalists.
Jesus is more reliable than Pythagoras.

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2016, 01:04:55 PM »
Dalapto,

I mentioned in one of my follow up post that it doesn't mean that atheists are not loving or caring of individuals.  But when it comes to converting others to atheism, I argue that it is social engineering.

Now the argument can be made that being religious causes the person to think irrationally.   Of course, there are religious scientists, though they are in the minority.  Even so, what is the point of being so called rational (I argue that theists can be rational and atheists irrational in certain ways) in a prison cell sentenced to life?  I argue that an atheist, in such conditions, can as easily be driven to madness as a theist.  You can be the most rational person in the world but if you spend enough time in solitary confinement,  you may go crazy. 

Noam Chomsky criticizes new atheism as a sort of fundamentalist religion.  I used to think that too but I now disagree.  I think it is closer to a political movement.  If it is a case of scientism, then the atheist wants more government money or donations to scientific research instead of churches.  There is a belief that technology will solve humanity's problems or at least that is our best hope.  Or maybe the thinking is if more people loved science, there would be less violence, stealing, vulgarity, etc.  More nerds means less thugs I suppose.  I'm not sure.  Or maybe it is a case of I want more people like me.  A liberal wants more liberals and vice versa. 

But in a prison cell, with one other person, what is the point of scientism?  Science requires a scientific community, and it is not science until there is a significant scientific consensus from the scientific elite on any given theory.