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Apologetics and Theology

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searcherman

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2016, 03:29:37 PM »
New school Marxism may be worse than old school Marxism. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.

You mean "I'm a victim of the Marxism that calls me a bigot when I cheerlead racist thugs at a trump rally"?

Get over yourself, only your candidate has a gulag policy.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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apophenia

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2016, 03:32:20 PM »
Apophenia,

I think I've made my point.  You would have to argue, that when it comes to converting others to atheism, how that benefits the individual who is completely and forever cut off from society.  I am simply arguing that the atheist's agenda is solely social engineering, and has nothing to do with the individual in- himself.

No, I pointed out a scenario in which the atheist's goal was motivated by something other than social engineering.  If you think you've made your point by having been given everything you request and still being shown that you have misjudged things, then I think you and I have differing views on what making one's point means.
--

Tonto say, "Both sides strong when in their own camp."

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searcherman

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2016, 03:33:01 PM »
Searcherman,

You are thinking of social engineering as a huge government  project.  That is not so.  It can be done individual to individual.  That is the point I'm trying to make.  It is a case of just using the individual as a meme.  Sometimes television, newspaper, or the internet is more effective.  Sometimes word of mouth, face to face is more effective.  But it is just a means either way.

I've never heard social engineering used in that context. It seems misleading. Would propagandizing, persuasion or proselytizing be a better term?
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2016, 03:41:02 PM »
Searcherman,

There is good social engineering and bad social engineering.   If you want more people in your city to cycle, you build/construct bike paths.  Technically, that's social engineering.   Now if I try to convince people that our city needs more bike paths, isn't that part of social engineering?   At least a first step or the least I could do. 
But my main argument is that the atheist is only concerned with social engineering, not the individual.  If not only concerned, then mostly, at least when it comes to converting others to atheism.  I'm not suggesting that atheists do not love or care for specific individuals.

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searcherman

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2016, 03:49:29 PM »
Nelvan,
On the personal level, most nonreligious I know care about the individual. But in my community, we stand with many clergy and their parishioners in fighting for good public policy and charity. In the broader sociopolitical scheme of things, I don't see that we are that different, despite differing philosophies.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2016, 04:07:35 PM »
Searcherman,

It is good for religion to involve itself in societal issues but it's main purpose is spirituality, to transform one's being, to transcend reality, etc.

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Trinity

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2016, 04:09:56 PM »
New school Marxism may be worse than old school Marxism. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.

You mean "I'm a victim of the Marxism that calls me a bigot when I cheerlead racist thugs at a trump rally"?

Get over yourself, only your candidate has a gulag policy.

You are using a bullying tactic.

FYI, I don't live in the US.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Questions11

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2016, 04:29:37 PM »
From previous discussions on this here at RF, I'd say that evangelical atheists are attempting to spread truth and deconvert theists because they believe that religion hinders flourishing and we're all better off without it.

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Kalamity

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2016, 04:33:15 PM »
I think it's just human nature to not want others to believe falsehoods. If someone else's belief in falsehoods may also affect one's quality of life, then motivation to convert them takes on a degree of self-interest, but not unreasonably so.

In the context of religious discourse, if religious folk are correct, then there's an added element of cognitive dissonance for the unbeliever, as beings created in the image of God undergo spiritual warfare (whether they recognize it as such, or not), duelling internally, as their conscience battles with their limited, but oft-overestimated, reasoning ability; overestimated in comparison to that of their spiritual foes. Perhaps this gnawing away of the conscience is alleviated as others - whose witness may otherwise exacerbate the unbeliever's malady - cease to hold them to account. A situation not too dissimilar from that of the first reading at Mass only yesterday: {Wisdom 2:1, 12-22}

If religious folk are incorrect, then I can see why atheists would want to convince them otherwise - referring back to my initial motivation for correcting error - but I find the ardent commitment to such a cause somewhat disproportionate. Perhaps contributing to this is the fact that the subject area is in itself fascinating, and tends to incorporate other fields in its wake. It does, however, seem odd that an unfounded belief would have such wide-ranging impact, interest and durability; but perhaps this is the inevitable situation for any sentient being with the capacity to conceive of eternity.

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Questions11

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2016, 04:36:48 PM »
Or maybe they're satanically motivated.

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Nelvan

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2016, 04:51:08 PM »
Questions,

If a person's motive is solely social engineering regardless of the individual, then yes, that could be satanic.  After all, Satan did try to tempt Jesus by claiming that all kingdoms could be His.

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Moot

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2016, 05:04:02 PM »
Or maybe they're satanically motivated.

Probably.

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Questions11

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2016, 05:16:33 PM »
That's exactly what a satanically motivated athiest would say.

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Moot

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2016, 05:18:10 PM »
That's exactly what a satanically motivated athiest would say.

Darn! I'm busted.

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Questions11

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Re: The atheist motive for converting others
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2016, 05:32:48 PM »
Yup.  Guess you now have a choice: repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness, or choose the way of Satan.  I'll leave it up to you.