RichardChad

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On materialism/physicalism, all mental phenomena are identical with material interactions and as such are entirely governed by the laws of physics. Predictability, it's what allows science to exist as a discipline.

Under that view, the thought you are having at this moment can be no different given the arrangement of all of the particles in the universe immediately preceding that "thought".

So, why do materialists argue with anyone? Why is the thought of arguing with a tree that it shouldn't have grown a leaf irrational? Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion they did rational?

Can it ever be rational to argue with any entity that is doing the only thing it can do given the current arrangement of particles in the universe?


Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are identical with material interactions.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

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TheBigOhMan

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2016, 08:05:40 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

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RichardChad

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2016, 08:08:46 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

3

Nelvan

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2016, 08:10:18 PM »
The materialist would argue with a person for being irrational because the materialist wants to change society and his environment.  The materialist has an agenda:  less churches, more science, more governmental policies like pro-choice and more secularism.  By creating doubt in religious people, the materialist is a step closer to realizing a godless, secular society.  Of course it may backfire, and religious people may double down, become more serious and sophisticated about apologetics.

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TheBigOhMan

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2016, 08:15:44 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

Depending on the computer it doesnt seem irrational to me

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hatsoff

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2016, 08:18:56 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

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RichardChad

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2016, 08:21:37 PM »
The materialist would argue with a person for being irrational because the materialist wants to change society and his environment.  The materialist has an agenda:  less churches, more science, more governmental policies like pro-choice and more secularism.  By creating doubt in religious people, the materialist is a step closer to realizing a godless, secular society.  Of course it may backfire, and religious people may double down, become more serious and sophisticated about apologetics.

Materialists know that they aren't materialists?
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

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RichardChad

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2016, 08:28:31 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

But it can do no other than what it did, why treat it as if it could have?
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

8

TheBigOhMan

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2016, 08:29:57 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

But it can do no other than what it did, why treat it as if it could have?

It's not about asking if the computer can do something different than what it did, it's about changing the future of the computer stream of "thoughts".

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Nelvan

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2016, 08:30:38 PM »
Do you mean, "Materialists know that they ARE materialists?

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Language-Gamer

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2016, 08:30:57 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

Or you may be able to use your interaction to underscore how much of a truth seeker, martyr for reason, etc. you are. That's why I think this forum is very helpful for a great many people. Of course, whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is a different discussion.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie
And that they love to see us all go to prison or die
Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"
But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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Rostos

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2016, 08:33:09 PM »
This is just another example where the atheist (majority are materialist) put an argument forward where they exempt themselves from what they are arguing.

I am not sure many realise it, but the ones that do maybe are trying to trick the person/people they are debating against.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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RichardChad

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2016, 08:33:57 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

But it can do no other than what it did, why treat it as if it could have?

It's not about asking if the computer can do something different than what it did, it's about changing the future of the computer stream of "thoughts".

remember, you are the same as "they", you can do no other than what you do, can have had no other thought than the one you had given the state of particles in the universe. You aren't freely choosing anything.
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

13

TheBigOhMan

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2016, 08:35:19 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

But it can do no other than what it did, why treat it as if it could have?

It's not about asking if the computer can do something different than what it did, it's about changing the future of the computer stream of "thoughts".

remember, you are the same as "they", you can do no other than what you do, can have had no other thought than the one you had given the state of particles in the universe. You aren't freely choosing anything.

Even if you are not free to choose anything, you can still change things. Material objects are changing each other out all the time.

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RichardChad

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Re: Why argue with someone that is saying the only thing they can say
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 08:37:45 PM »
If you want to change other persons opinions then yes it make sense to argue with them.

Why is the thought of arguing with a supercomputer that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) it did irrational, but arguing with a person that it shouldn't have come to the conclusion(opinion) they did rational

If the supercomputer has an AI interface a la star trek, then why would arguing with it be irrational?  You may be able to show the supercomputer something it does not know, or it may be able to show you something you do not know.  Either way, arguing could be helpful.

But it can do no other than what it did, why treat it as if it could have?

It's not about asking if the computer can do something different than what it did, it's about changing the future of the computer stream of "thoughts".

remember, you are the same as "they", you can do no other than what you do, can have had no other thought than the one you had given the state of particles in the universe. You aren't freely choosing anything.

Even if you are not free to choose anything, you can still change things. Material objects are changing each other out all the time.

In the sense that water changes the rock that it flows over, yes.
Neither the water nor the rock have an choice in the matter.
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"