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Apologetics and Theology

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john doe

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2016, 11:37:32 AM »
Isn't this guy guilty of scientism?  So much emphasis on macro physics vs micro physics when it is internal states of consciousness which should surely be the center of focus for any discussion of will - free or otherwise.

That's a good point. Scientism may be the Achilles Heel of his overall position. I think a lot of what he says regarding humans, and the drive to do good based on evolution, has some validity.

I see no inadequacy whatsoever in a purely evolutionary understanding of morality.

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Trinity

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2016, 04:05:45 PM »
I think some produce more desirable societies than others, yes.

Different people desire different things. Are some desires better than others?

Only subjectively.

Can you give examples of subjectively desirable societies and subjectively undesirable societies?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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RichardChad

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2016, 07:37:52 PM »
Isn't this guy guilty of scientism?  So much emphasis on macro physics vs micro physics when it is internal states of consciousness which should surely be the center of focus for any discussion of will - free or otherwise.

That's a good point. Scientism may be the Achilles Heel of his overall position. I think a lot of what he says regarding humans, and the drive to do good based on evolution, has some validity.

I see no inadequacy whatsoever in a purely evolutionary understanding of morality.

On determinism you are determined to believe what you believe and could hold no other belief.
Given that, how could one possibly argue for morality (what should be done) if one believes in determinism?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 07:39:39 PM by RichardChad »
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

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john doe

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2016, 09:26:29 PM »
Wait, do you mean that a person who believes determinism would be physically incapable of moral judgement because he holds that opinion?

Or do you mean that, because obviously he does exhibit moral judgements that should convince him to change his opinion about determinism?

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Keith_

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2016, 11:19:27 PM »
This is long, detailed and the guy isn't the most sparkling speaker, but he makes good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBgBeNLk-w
I started listening, but I quit reading when the speaker said "Indeterminism doesn't allow for free will because by definition we can't control it". While I'm not a philosopher,I object to this definition because a practical definition of indeterministic doesn't have to include a complete loss of control.  An indeterministic system is one where the outputs are not entirely determined by the present state or inputs to the system. The mechanism by which this would occur isn't relevant.

-Keith
Eccl.1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

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searcherman

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2016, 12:58:50 AM »
This is long, detailed and the guy isn't the most sparkling speaker, but he makes good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBgBeNLk-w
I started listening, but I quit reading when the speaker said "Indeterminism doesn't allow for free will because by definition we can't control it". While I'm not a philosopher,I object to this definition because a practical definition of indeterministic doesn't have to include a complete loss of control.  An indeterministic system is one where the outputs are not entirely determined by the present state or inputs to the system. The mechanism by which this would occur isn't relevant.

-Keith

Yeah, some of that lost me too, but for different reasons. I have to read up on indeterminism.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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bskeptic

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2016, 05:36:17 AM »

I started listening, but I quit reading when the speaker said "Indeterminism doesn't allow for free will because by definition we can't control it". While I'm not a philosopher,I object to this definition because a practical definition of indeterministic doesn't have to include a complete loss of control.


I agree with your point, but he may have been talking about materialist style indeterminism? And so in that context he may be correct.

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bdsimon

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2016, 06:27:42 AM »
Is this guy like an evolutionary psychologist or philosopher or what?
I didn't find much outside of "atheist activist" in an online search.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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searcherman

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2016, 09:25:31 AM »
Is this guy like an evolutionary psychologist or philosopher or what?
I didn't find much outside of "atheist activist" in an online search.

He's an activist and amateur philosopher like us.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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wonderer

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2016, 10:08:23 AM »
Fits in nicely with what I said on another thread was the most reasonable way to live if atheism-materialism, and therefore moral nihilism, was true: a selfish, but not psychopathic, hedonist who hypocritically encouraged others to live a moral life.  I called him MrHorrid.  If I deconverted it is who I would likely become, or at least try to become so I could live most profitably and reasonably.

I think it is naive of you to think that you can predict who you would become with any real accuracy under such circumstances.

Also, our behavior is largely a matter of our emotional reactions to things rather than our reasoning about things.

I can give an example from just last night...

I was at a casino playing blackjack, and the dealer was distributing winnings, and gave me what seemed to me to be double the winnings I was entitled to.  Now I'm a dilettante at blackjack, so sometimes I would get unexpectedly large payoffs, so I wasn't sure that I wasn't overlooking some subtlety of the rules or the particular table I was playing at, but after some brief consideration I decided that was unlikely to be the case, and it was more probable that the dealer had made a mistake as I first thought.

By this time there was nothing stopping me from collecting the extra winnings without anyone (besides myself) knowing, and I was quite consciously aware of that.  Yet a split second later, I asked the dealer if there was some reason she had given me double winnings.  The main reason for that is that it is important to me to feel that I am an honest person. 

Is such a motivation "reasonable" on materialistic atheism?  I don't know or even particularly care.  It is the sort of reasoning that works for this social primate to have self respect.

Now it turned out that the dealer didn't know what happened either, and the player to my left presented an argument from ignorance that the extra chips were probably hers.  Being as this casino is in the US deep south, it is most probable that the player who was to my left is a Christian.  Yet this player had no qualms about repeatedly trying to lay claim to money she had no good reason to believe herself to be entitled to.

Long story short, the pit boss was called and video reviewed, that showed my understanding of what had happened to be correct.  I did feel somewhat bad about disrupting the game for the other players at the table, and perhaps having caused a black mark against the dealer's performance record.  But those negative feelings weren't enough to offset the self respect that comes from being honest for me.

So I'm curious Q, as to why you think think that you can predict with any accuracy, how you would behave with a substantially different worldview?  What makes you think that you would be able to behave according to some sort of utterly dispassionate view you have of what is rational on materialism?

Do you think it the case for you, that you wouldn't let trivialities (like what leads to you having self respect) affect your decisions?  Why think that?
“I knew the people who worked for me forumed with me. When you know people, you have to behave towards them like human beings.”  -Oskar Schindler. [Plagiarized]

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wonderer

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2016, 10:16:04 AM »
This is long, detailed and the guy isn't the most sparkling speaker, but he makes good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBgBeNLk-w

Gawd help us.  Six minutes in and I can't stay awake .. I lack the will.  Does it get better?

Isn't this guy guilty of scientism?  So much emphasis on macro physics vs micro physics when it is internal states of consciousness which should surely be the center of focus for any discussion of will - free or otherwise.

That's a good point. Scientism may be the Achilles Heel of his overall position. I think a lot of what he says regarding humans, and the drive to do good based on evolution, has some validity.

How are charges of scientism not a version of the genetic fallacy or of a red herring?  Such charges do nothing to address the argument presented.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 11:21:54 AM by wonderer »
“I knew the people who worked for me forumed with me. When you know people, you have to behave towards them like human beings.”  -Oskar Schindler. [Plagiarized]

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Language-Gamer

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2016, 11:16:16 AM »
This is long, detailed and the guy isn't the most sparkling speaker, but he makes good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBgBeNLk-w

Gawd help us.  Six minutes in and I can't stay awake .. I lack the will.  Does it get better?

Isn't this guy guilty of scientism?  So much emphasis on macro physics vs micro physics when it is internal states of consciousness which should surely be the center of focus for any discussion of will - free or otherwise.

That's a good point. Scientism may be the Achilles Heel of his overall position. I think a lot of what he says regarding humans, and the drive to do good based on evolution, has some validity.

How are charges of scientism not a version of the genetic fallacy of a red herring?  Such charges do nothing to address the argument presented.

The original poster would have to clarify, but if his point is that the argument is founded upon scientism and scientism is clearly false, then the foundation of the argument crumbles and the argument fails.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie
And that they love to see us all go to prison or die
Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"
But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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searcherman

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2016, 12:33:24 PM »
This is long, detailed and the guy isn't the most sparkling speaker, but he makes good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBgBeNLk-w

Gawd help us.  Six minutes in and I can't stay awake .. I lack the will.  Does it get better?

Isn't this guy guilty of scientism?  So much emphasis on macro physics vs micro physics when it is internal states of consciousness which should surely be the center of focus for any discussion of will - free or otherwise.

That's a good point. Scientism may be the Achilles Heel of his overall position. I think a lot of what he says regarding humans, and the drive to do good based on evolution, has some validity.

How are charges of scientism not a version of the genetic fallacy of a red herring?  Such charges do nothing to address the argument presented.

The original poster would have to clarify, but if his point is that the argument is founded upon scientism and scientism is clearly false, then the foundation of the argument crumbles and the argument fails.

There are aspects of his talk that I have already mentioned that make sense to me. A lot of it is over my head. I appreciate hearing the critique by theists, it teaches me there is so much to learn about philosophy.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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searcherman

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2016, 11:43:30 AM »
This is long, detailed and the guy isn't the most sparkling speaker, but he makes good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBgBeNLk-w

Gawd help us.  Six minutes in and I can't stay awake .. I lack the will.  Does it get better?

Isn't this guy guilty of scientism?  So much emphasis on macro physics vs micro physics when it is internal states of consciousness which should surely be the center of focus for any discussion of will - free or otherwise.

That's a good point. Scientism may be the Achilles Heel of his overall position. I think a lot of what he says regarding humans, and the drive to do good based on evolution, has some validity.

How are charges of scientism not a version of the genetic fallacy or of a red herring?  Such charges do nothing to address the argument presented.

I certainly don't think such charges disprove his arguments about cooperation and altruism. There are aspects to his talk that I don't understand.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 11:45:41 AM by searcherman »
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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RichardChad

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Re: Illusion of free will
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2016, 03:36:00 PM »
Really illuminating to see the mass abandonment of physicalism/determinism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlQa_9pkgbg (the first 30 minutes, after that he drifts off into embracing concepts that only make sense on LFW)

If you as an atheist don't buy into unarguably the core of your belief system as it relates to our reality, why do you hold to atheism?

I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"