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Paterfamilia

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Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« on: March 03, 2016, 12:06:46 PM »
I searched to see if this had been discussed.

Shermer's account

Didn't find it.

As he says, if he had heard it from someone else, he would have made the appropriate skeptical attributions.

Would anyone agree with me that this is an event that fits the way God reveals Himself to people?  A still, small radio broadcast.
"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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searcherman

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2016, 09:33:20 PM »
I believe this is a fluke, a coincidence. With all the interactions and phenomena that happen in the universe, it would be more strange that coincidences didn't happen, because of the laws of probability.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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lucious

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2016, 11:04:31 PM »
I agree, I think this is a good method of divine non-coercive revelation.

An event that sits at the fringes of extreme coincidence and miraculous. If you truly wish to explain it away as a brute coincidence, you can, with some rationalisation. But something still does not ultimately sit right and you are left wondering whether something else is behind it.

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TheBigOhMan

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2016, 12:26:23 AM »
There are many strange cases of paranormal events that I've heard of, some better documented than others and some that are hard if possible to explain away. At the end, I'm always left with the unnerving feeling that the paranormal is far too elusive to be studied by science :P:.

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searcherman

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2016, 12:32:55 AM »
There are many strange cases of paranormal events that I've heard of, some better documented than others and some that are hard if possible to explain away. At the end, I'm always left with the unnerving feeling that the paranormal is far too elusive to be studied by science :P:.

It's all the more elusive, the more that people carry video cams in their pockets.
Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.- K. Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

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TheBigOhMan

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2016, 12:39:03 AM »
There are many strange cases of paranormal events that I've heard of, some better documented than others and some that are hard if possible to explain away. At the end, I'm always left with the unnerving feeling that the paranormal is far too elusive to be studied by science :P:.

It's all the more elusive, the more that people carry video cams in their pockets.

Many anomalous events have been quite extensively recorded either in camera or by scientists. Most people aren't aware though.

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Emuse

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2016, 02:06:49 AM »
Here are my initial thoughts.  They are off the top of my head (as usual) so please feel free to pull them apart!

Firstly we need some broader background information.  It is well known that we have what has been termed "an overactive agency detector" that often gives false positives due to its advantageousness with regard to survival.  Simply put, if you see a shadow out of the corner of your eye and hear a rustle in the bushes then it is more advantageous that this gives rise to the sense that there is some agent causing the shadow and rustle and that this gives you the instinct to run.  Even if your brain gets it wrong more often that not, this is much more advantageous for you in terms of survival because the alternative is that you would easy meat for a wannabe predator.  People would just stand around thinking "Oh, that's nothing" whilst a predator was lining himself up for a meal!  A consequence of this is that our brains do not cope at all well with coincidences, especially coincidences into which we read (or to which we can assign) strong meaning.    So even if we mustn't rule out agency a priori, neither must we rule out the possibility of us falsely attributing agency in the face of coincidence.  Even after his experience, this seems to be the type of open mindedness that the author is calling for.

When we look at this situation, we can see the leaps that the author's wife made over an extremely short period!  A radio that had not been working, is found to mysteriously be working on the couple's wedding day.  On discovering this, not only does the author's wife make the leap that this has been caused by an invisible agent, but by her Grandfather specifically.  Thinking as broadly as possible, I can see why even some Christians would take issue with this.  The Bible (particularly, the OT) strongly prohibits contacting the dead, states that the devil and demons can masquerade as angels of light, tell us what our itching ears want to hear and that we should test spirits!  Even if it was an invisible and supernatural agent, how do we know it wasn't a demon attempting to lure this sceptical woman down a dark path?  If she is now open to the possibility of her father trying to contact her, isn't she now more likely to contact a medium to see if she can make further contact with her father and see if she can communicate back and so on?

The woman obviously concluded (almost instantly) that it was her Grandfather because the instinctive and strong sense of agency she felt in light of the event was also coupled with very strong and positive feelings.   But all of the above highlights why we can't just blindly trust these leaps and I'm speaking of someone who has had experiences similar to this (although, not on the same scale).   The person who looks at a sunset and gets a strong sense that "someone must have made all this" and attributes it to something omnibenevolent simply because the feeling is positive is doing exactly the same as the woman in the article.

So yes, the experience is very similar to spiritual experiences of God and that is simultaneously a problem because we do have very good reasons, based on background understanding of how the mind works, to question the leaps that the woman made on entering the room and hearing the radio.  On the basis of recent research, this type of agency detection is something that the right hemisphere of the brain seems to be responsible for.  The right hemisphere is keeping an eye on outside broad concerns whilst the left hemisphere focusses on the detail (eg, eating the food).  It is the right hemisphere that detects and agent and says to the left hemisphere "run!" if it detects something that is potentially dangerous.  However, the right hemisphere is less precise for the reasons I've described.   "Hearing God" (or any other spiritual being) is consistent with the left hemisphere mistaking a communication from the right hemisphere as contact from another agent.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 02:11:41 AM by Emuse »

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igr

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2016, 02:10:48 AM »
Intermittent failures are common in electronic equipment (anybody with extensive experience with electronic equipment will tell you this).  Dry solder joints, thermal expansion, oxidation/contamination etc.  The oxidised switch contacts are entirely plausible and (from the info provided) would seem to be the explanation.  No God to see here.

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kurros

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2016, 02:54:23 AM »
Would anyone agree with me that this is an event that fits the way God reveals Himself to people?  A still, small radio broadcast.

If it is, then God is into some really weird psychological games. And anyway sounds more like ghosts than God wouldn't you say? That was how Shermer's wife interpreted it. So if God was trying to reveal himself to her then he failed.

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JFS

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2016, 10:11:03 AM »
I searched to see if this had been discussed.

Shermer's account

Didn't find it.

As he says, if he had heard it from someone else, he would have made the appropriate skeptical attributions.

Would anyone agree with me that this is an event that fits the way God reveals Himself to people?  A still, small radio broadcast.

I don't know about the radio 'freak' event but I am in respect of the open mind that Michael Shermer is keeping. 
"Influencing people for the good of myself is manipulation; influencing people for the good of the kingdom is motivation." -Alistair Begg

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Paterfamilia

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 04:54:11 PM »
It almost seems like some of you don't know who Michael Shermer is, or that he routinely explains away "unnatural phenomena" in the same way that you have.  In fact he has made a good enough living at it to buy his marriage license at the Beverly Hills courthouse.

So it's not an average source for this account.

I worked at NSA for a few years and do have a small understanding of radio operations.  While they often do fail because of the conditions listed by igr, I have never seen one just suddenly start working again.  I'm not calling it impossible, but I have never seen it happen.  When they die they generally stay dead until repairs are done.

Just a couple quick points - one is that "signs from God" do happen, and we don't always make the right attributions.   This is one main reason why they are so few and far between.  God would rather us rely on His present revelations, than to begin to seek after, and rely on, new signs from heaven.

Second, in most cases, whatever the "sign" is, it is by far most meaningful to the intended, and easily explained away by anyone else, just as in this case. 

I was stunned to see Michael Shermer, the renowned skeptic, give this account that did indeed shake his skepticism.  That's a good thing.  Hopefully he will have a more open mind and his glimpse of the supernatural will at least help him to consider other possibilities than strictly natural explanations.

"First I knocked them out of a tree with a rock.  Then I saved them."

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Snoochies

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 06:04:46 PM »
I remember back in my Atheist days I was really keen on this girl, and was in the midst of my depression. She rejected me this one evening and I was back on my path to darkness, I ended up getting very drunk. I went back to my mates house, and passed out in his cubby (was a purpose built cubby for living in), I slept in the room with the radio on. In the middle of the night I woke sobbing as I often did and the moon was shining directly throught he window at me and the Guns N Roses song 'patience' came on the radio. I remember it being really fitting at the time and was probably one of the first instances at the time that maybe I'm not alone.

Coindidence? Maybe, but at a time of despair, it got me thinking and lo and behold, that patience really payed off big time :)
"God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear." Psalm 46:1-2

* Forum members please note:- Just because I ask you lots of questions, this does not mean I know something better. I am merely asking to seek clarification and arrive at truth the best I can

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bskeptic

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Re: Michael Shemers "skepticism shaken to the core"
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2016, 04:14:40 AM »
Would anyone agree with me that this is an event that fits the way God reveals Himself to people?  A still, small radio broadcast.

If it is, then God is into some really weird psychological games. And anyway sounds more like ghosts than God wouldn't you say? That was how Shermer's wife interpreted it. So if God was trying to reveal himself to her then he failed.

Yeah but maybe God uses the paranormal to hint that there is more to life than some people think?