RichardChad

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #180 on: March 04, 2016, 07:40:10 PM »
Note that you seem to be blending science and atheism.  They are very closely linked without being exactly the same thing.  This is why I think your anti-science rant (even though you erroneously and equivocably link it to the "why" question) is firmly off-topic.

Science: The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.


Atheism: one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.

Why would you think they are related?

I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

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igr

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #181 on: March 05, 2016, 02:54:06 AM »
Thoughts on Occam's Razor:

This is sometimes stated as "other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones"

Hence, an explanation from the Supernatural Realm is to be rejected when competing with an explanation from the Natural Realm on the basis that "other things are not equal".

Justification:  As far as we know anything, we know that there is a Natural Realm.  It is observable,testable, verifiable.  The Supernatural Realm is conjecture.  As far as we know, it is not observable, not testable, not verifiable.  It is not a level playing field if we allow both.

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Philip Rand

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #182 on: March 05, 2016, 06:31:09 AM »
I'm A Heart-Shaped Coffin

I think your "resolute" analysis of the Craig syllogism raises an interesting issue:

Neo had agreed that his logic was valid but the way he constructed his argument seemed (to Neo) to be deceptive for the reason being that it could have been constructed as:

(1) If objective moral values and duties exist, then God exists
(2) p
(3) q

This syllogism would have been equivalent to:

(1) If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist
(2) ~q
(3) ~p

The deception part that he's speaking of is that in the former syllogism denying q leads to the denial of p (Affirms that God does not exist) and in the latter the denial of q denies  p (affirms that God does exist)

But, this means that God is untouchable in the context of the argument regarding moral values in the latter but not the former. (you can deny q to deny p)

But, Craig probably believes that if not OMV, not God. This belief is not expressed in his argument though and he could have easily done the former. (denying q to deny p does not deny God in this case; it affirms it through affirming OMV; but denying OMV (affirming q) cannot be used to deny God)

Or something like that. Hence, the "nots".

Edit: Sorry for killing what you were trying to do. I'll probably create another thread to argue specifically on this and allow you to move forward.

However, I don't believe Craig is suggesting a resolute reading of the syllogism (you have intimated this yourself)

Rather, his syllogism should be read as:

q p ~p ~q
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OrdinaryClay

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #183 on: March 05, 2016, 06:39:46 AM »

Another example is the fallacy that if morality is not objective as Dr Craig defines the term, then it is reduced to being purely arbitrary - which seems to be simply absurd. Morals can exist, have weight, merit and value and even be objective without any need to refer to a God.
Huh? No one says Hitlers morals did not exist. Without God ... ya, they can exist, but they are fabricated in the mind of man and can be fabricated in any fashion any group desires ergo they are by definition arbitrary.
"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.(Luk 13:24)
So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?(Gal 4:16)

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OrdinaryClay

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #184 on: March 05, 2016, 06:43:09 AM »
At the bottom of each of his posts you see this

Craig's top errors:
Logic - Probabilities - Taxi-Cabs - Quotes - Historical Methods - Explanatory Evidence

Click on them for some heavy and scholarly criticism of WLC, including attacks on his intellectual honesty.

I would be interested to hear WLC defenders respond to Neo on these.  (EDIT: I am not endorsing an attack on WLC's dishonesty, nor defending WLC against such an attack here. I am simply drawing attention to Neo's blog posts about WLC and eager to see responses from WLC defenders.)
There are tens of thousands of responses all through out this site, the web and Dr Craig's literature. Just because atheist X does not have their ego stroked by having Dr Craig, or anyone else, look directly at them and respond to their specific words means nothing.
"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.(Luk 13:24)
So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?(Gal 4:16)

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OrdinaryClay

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #185 on: March 05, 2016, 01:01:33 PM »

Another example is the fallacy that if morality is not objective as Dr Craig defines the term, then it is reduced to being purely arbitrary - which seems to be simply absurd. Morals can exist, have weight, merit and value and even be objective without any need to refer to a God.
Huh? No one says Hitlers morals did not exist. Without God ... ya, they can exist, but they are fabricated in the mind of man and can be fabricated in any fashion any group desires ergo they are by definition arbitrary.
Yes, but Hitler thought they were the objective morals dictated by his God. So what you are demonstrating is that the claimed objective morals of faith are arbitrary.  All morals are fabricated in the minds of men/women, men wrote the bible.
You're confused. Whether morals can exist objectively sans God is a totally different question from which morals are Gods.


atheism is a lost mind set from its instantiation.

"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.(Luk 13:24)
So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?(Gal 4:16)

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Lion IRC

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #186 on: March 05, 2016, 03:26:03 PM »
Thoughts on Occam's Razor:

This is sometimes stated as "other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones"

Hence, an explanation from the Supernatural Realm is to be rejected when competing with an explanation from the Natural Realm on the basis that "other things are not equal".

Justification:  As far as we know anything, we know that there is a Natural Realm.  It is observable,testable, verifiable.  The Supernatural Realm is conjecture.  As far as we know, it is not observable, not testable, not verifiable.  It is not a level playing field if we allow both.

Notwithstanding your contentious claim that facts about divinity aren't observed (can't be empirically verified,) don't you agree that the non-theist alternative scenario leaves far too many existential 'why' questions unanswered, thus rendering it the more complicated of the two? 

These unanswered questions are like loose threads which Occams Razor opposes.

Surely a unified theory should be neat and internally harmonious.

I find atheology very confusing and complicated. As Frank Turek says, I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

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RichardChad

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #187 on: March 05, 2016, 07:11:33 PM »
Note that you seem to be blending science and atheism.  They are very closely linked without being exactly the same thing.  This is why I think your anti-science rant (even though you erroneously and equivocably link it to the "why" question) is firmly off-topic.

Science: The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.


Atheism: one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.

Why would you think they are related?
Well in that the study of the nature and behaviour of the physical world through observstion and experiment has not indicated the presence of a God.

1. You seem to be under the impression that God is material? He isn't..

2. How do you think that A) we have a universe B) the universe obeys laws ? Materialism/physicalism can't explain it.
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

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john doe

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #188 on: March 05, 2016, 07:57:28 PM »
Notwithstanding your contentious claim that facts about divinity aren't observed (can't be empirically verified,) don't you agree that the non-theist alternative scenario leaves far too many existential 'why' questions unanswered, thus rendering it the more complicated of the two? 

These unanswered questions are like loose threads which Occams Razor opposes.

Surely a unified theory should be neat and internally harmonious.

I find atheology very confusing and complicated. As Frank Turek says, I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Not addressed to me but I don't agree.  A narrative story which allows you to tuck all the messy strands of pertinent observation out of sight does nothing more than a good Kippling just so story.  Facile answers should be examined carefully and with suspicion.  The tale you already know may not be the best one.

At the same time I think people sometimes lean on Occam's razor too much.  There is danger of too much reductionism.  It is only a guideline for triage work, not a reliable principle suitable for basing an argument on.

As for supplying lots of neat answers to why questions, why not just admit we don't yet know?  It isn't an urgent matter to answer life's big questions.  A rush to judgement just gets you done, it doesn't really scratch the itch if you actually care about the truth.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:38:55 AM by whateverist »

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neopolitan

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2016, 12:55:42 AM »
'Why' questions matter more than how questions. When push comes to shove, even the uber materialists accidentally slip up and reveal their attachment to the existential "why" paradigm.

Lawrence Krauss say...

Quote
...physics has basically solved the mystery of why there is something
rather than nothing.

Hey George Ellis, do you agree?


George Ellis say:
Quote
“Certainly not. He is presenting untested speculative theories of how things came into existence out of a pre-existing complex of entities, including variational principles, quantum field theory, specific symmetry groups, a bubbling vacuum, all the components of the standard model of particle physics, and so on.

He does not explain in what way these entities could have pre-existed the coming into being of the universe, why they should have existed at all,
or why they should have had the form they did.

And he gives no experimental or observational process whereby we could test these vivid speculations of the supposed universe-generation mechanism.

How indeed can you test what existed before the universe existed?  You can’t."

…what he is presenting is not tested science. It’s a philosophical speculation, which he apparently believes is so compelling he does not have to give any specification of evidence that would confirm it is true.”

YABBUT…............

Atheism-of-the-gaps say:
Quote
I am hopeful, along with some physicists, science will one day answer that question..


No, no, Richard. You have it all wrong.

If a theory is “sufficiently elegant” and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally.



Sean Carrol say :
Quote
…In complicated situations, fortune-cookie-sized mottos like "theories should be falsifiable" are no substitute for careful thinking about how science works.



See that? Many in the 'scientific atheism' vanguard are actually beginning to demur and back away from the epistemology of the empirical/scientific method.

They say if a theory (ie. their theory) has "the right vibe" we should just accept it.

See physicist Marcelo Gleiser’s breathtaking (unintentional) admission that quantum physics might be little more than the newest form of religion, (New Scientist May 2010) and that the only way to try and take (the real) God out of the picture is to invent/imagine something else as a replacement. That "something else", we are told, by people with straight faces, can never be empirically verified, only intuited.

The grand unified theory of everything, Mr Gleiser tells us, is simply not possible, not only because we don’t have the right tools (empiricism) but primarily because you cant verify something which doesn’t really/materially exist.

According to this post-modern, weak-kneed form of atheist physics, reality simply isn’t suited to empirical measurement and even if it was we don’t know how to make the sort of telescope/microscope/durometer
one would need to do so.


"...For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow

This seems to be entirely equivocation between "why" meaning "for what reason" and "why" meaning "by what mechanism".

Science finds the latter to be infinitely interesting and the former to be poorly formed when not relating to issues of social science, criminology, psychology and history (and few combinations that make up "soft" science).  Think of the differences between these questions:

"Why did your graffiti work have the colours that it has?"
"Why does the rainbow have the colours that it has?"

Quite different types of questions with quite different answers.  Applying the "why" from the first question to the second makes it a nonsense question, and nothing to do with science.

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neopolitan

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2016, 01:28:20 AM »
...I would next like to bring up your blog about;
"The Method of WLC's Madness"

Specifically Occams Razor and how it applies critically AGAINST your (special pleading) statement;

"...The major problem with a god solution is that the god solution raises questions that are more difficult than those it answers.  That’s negative explanatory power."

The God conclusion answers the HOW and the WHY.

Your non-theist model effectively leaves our existential "WHY" questions unanswered.
(See Coyne, Dawkins, Krauss, Myers, etc. dismissing these with the wave of a hand.)

Now, I ask, which is the simpler, neater, more satisfying theory according to Occam? The  complicated one which has all those loose thread, unanswered questions dangling enigmatically, or the neatly bundled Unified Theory of Everything we call the God Conclusion?

I argue that it is atheism - not theism - which has all the unnecessary 'embranglements'.
And that Occam would prefer the neater bundle with fewer loose threads.

Occam is not authoritative.  Sure, if we have two possible solutions to a problem and one is simple and the other is complicated, we should possibly look at the simple one first.  But even if the simple solution appears to work, this does not necessarily make the complicated one wrong.  It all comes down to evidence.  Is there evidence that supports the simple solution (evidence that would not exist if it were wrong, so it useful for falsification)?  Is there an apparent total lack of evidence that falsifies the simple solution directly?  If so, then we can tentatively accept the simple solution.  But if we turn to the complicated solution and try to falsify it, which should be easy, because it's complicated, but nothing we do falsifies it, then we need to look at points on which the two solutions differ and see if there is any evidence regarding those points.

What we can't do, as rational people, is rely on the arbitrary application of Occam's razor.  That would be lunacy.

Your complaint, however, isn't really about Occam's razor at all.  It's about explanatory power.  And even more specifically about an attempt to misapply explanatory power.

Atheism, as opposed to the god conclusion, totally removes the "why" question as an issue.  There is no "why" other than "by what mechanism".  Meaning of the sort that you are grasping for simply doesn't exist.  It's dispensed with.  You seem to grasp this, to some extent, even if it leaves you feeling unsatisfied.  The god conclusion, on the other hand, has an infinite expanse of "why", it's "why" all the way down and very little by way of answers beyond "god is mysterious".  It is almost as if you are less interested in the answers and more fascinated by the ability to ask questions to which there aren't answers.  These questions (without possible answers) are not explanatory.

You seem to think that there is a difference between "unanswered" and "unanswerable" questions, as if the latter are intrinsically superior.  This might in fact be your claim, but you'd have to provide an argument to support that position.

As for me, why are "unanswered" intrinsically superior to "unanswerable" questions?  Because while they are unanswered today, they might be answered tomorrow, or next year, or next century, or in the far distant future, or, perhaps, never at all.  But even if we never manage to answer them, they give us something to work towards.

Pretending that you've wrapped up all the loose threads, as you claim to have done with the god conclusion, when all you've done is hide a mass of potentially dangerous ignorance under a pile of pixie dust and glitter, is not intellectually honest.

This is all a side show, however, since I don't think that you've really addressed the core objections in The Method of WLC's Madness - namely the misapplication of "explanatory power" to issues like the beginning of the universe (I'll generously give him a pass on the resurrection, since at least there's a claim to history there).

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Philip Rand

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2016, 02:54:08 AM »
"Why did your graffiti work have the colours that it has?"
"Why does the rainbow have the colours that it has?"

Quite different types of questions with quite different answers.  Applying the "why" from the first question to the second makes it a nonsense question, and nothing to do with science.

Hmmmm... interesting neopolitan... Perhaps you have pinpointed exactly the difference between an Atheist and a Theist...

On account when I read the question:

"Why does the rainbow have the colours that it has?"

I can come up with a multitude of scientific answers...

While you simply say that the question is simply a piece of non-sense...and leave it at that...

Perhaps, science needs God then... to progress?
A lover of horses and Mozart.

12

neopolitan

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2016, 03:43:23 AM »
"Why did your graffiti work have the colours that it has?"
"Why does the rainbow have the colours that it has?"

Quite different types of questions with quite different answers.  Applying the "why" from the first question to the second makes it a nonsense question, and nothing to do with science.

Hmmmm... interesting neopolitan... Perhaps you have pinpointed exactly the difference between an Atheist and a Theist...

On account when I read the question:

"Why does the rainbow have the colours that it has?"

I can come up with a multitude of scientific answers...

While you simply say that the question is simply a piece of non-sense...and leave it at that...

Perhaps, science needs God then... to progress?

No.  Science needs people with sufficient attention span to read the entirety of a paragraph and not pick single sentences out of context.

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Philip Rand

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2016, 05:29:42 AM »
So neopolitan....

Why does science need people with sufficient attention span to read the entirety of a paragraph and not pick single sentences out of context?

Isn't that just a piece of non-sense?

Or... is it perhaps a good way to pick out anomalies?

Science is always on the look out for anomalies, i.e. Why do they exist?... hmmmm, perhaps something wrong with the theory?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:32:40 AM by Philip Rand »
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neopolitan

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #194 on: March 06, 2016, 06:38:29 AM »
So neopolitan....

Why does science need people with sufficient attention span to read the entirety of a paragraph and not pick single sentences out of context?

Isn't that just a piece of non-sense?

Or... is it perhaps a good way to pick out anomalies?

Science is always on the look out for anomalies, i.e. Why do they exist?... hmmmm, perhaps something wrong with the theory?

Whenever I see your replies, Philip, I think that surely there is an intelligent theist out there who can deal with the blatant errors and misunderstandings in your objections.  I really don't think that it's reasonable to have me deal with your issues while there are more nuanced and subtle issued that could be pursued with other people.

But apparently no.  It seems that anyone opposed to theism has to deal with whole spectrum, from PCH demanding that I read scholarly works by Craig and interact at that level and, well, you (and RichardChad).

No matter.  I tried not to make my reply to you too complex, but you still seem to struggle.

There are are "why" questions that relate to intent, for what reason did a certain thing happen (when it was caused by a volitional agent).  And there are "why" questions that relate to a natural mechanism that does not involve intent, by what mechanism did a certain thing happen.

Your question is not nonsense, nor is it non-sense, because science as conducted by humans is not a natural mechanism - it is an endeavour carried out by humans with certain objectives.  Those objectives can be more easily and comprehensively obtained by people who are able to read entire paragraphs without drifting off and by people who are not inclined to attack single sentences in paragraphs while ignoring the context in which that sentence was situated.

Hopefully this is our last interaction, I find dealing with you to be far from conducive to irenicity.  I'm happy with aggression when coupled with intelligence and good faith, but you seem to be lacking something with regard to that.