Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2016, 10:45:57 PM »
You want an example of something that came into being that was caused? Are you serious?
Yes, of course. Otherwise the first premis is useless. Of course you need an example.
Quote

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.

The better question is, give an example of something that came into being UNCAUSED.
Why? I am not claiming to know, and am not basing a logical argumentupon claiming to know. I am asking what experienceof ex-nihilo creation the first premis is drawn from - nobody seems to be able to answer, other than pretending not to understand the question.
Quote

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.

IN terms of the universe, if all space, time and energy came into being, then by logical deduction, space, time and energy were all caused.
How is that a logical deduction? Deduced from what example? None right?

You say that everything that begins to exist has a cause, I ask for an example - you appear not to even grasp the question.
A premis needs to be drawn from something - what makes you think that something that begins to exist must have a cause?
It is a simple question, one that Dr Craig has never been able to effectively answer.

In a logical argument the PREMISES are drawn from what we know to be true.
The first premis of Dr Craig's Kalaam fails because it is not known to be true. It is just a guess.
It is an ABDUCTION as Dr Craig himself states. ABDUCTIVE reasoning is informed guesswork - not a known fact.

In DEDUCTIVE reasoning the conclusion is a direct result of the facts available.
In ABDUCTIVE reasoning (guessing), it is a likely inference.

Dr Craig's first premis is an abduction (guess), not a deduction (conclusion drawn from the evidence).

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2016, 10:56:11 PM »
You want an example of something that came into being that was caused? Are you serious?
Yes, of course. Otherwise the first premis is useless. Of course you need an example.
Quote

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.

The better question is, give an example of something that came into being UNCAUSED.
Why? I am not claiming to know, and am not basing a logical argumentupon claiming to know. I am asking what experienceof ex-nihilo creation the first premis is drawn from - nobody seems to be able to answer, other than pretending not to understand the question.
Quote

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.

IN terms of the universe, if all space, time and energy came into being, then by logical deduction, space, time and energy were all caused.
How is that a logical deduction? Deduced from what example? None right?

You say that everything that begins to exist has a cause, I ask for an example - you appear not to even grasp the question.
A premis needs to be drawn from something - what makes you think that something that begins to exist must have a cause?
It is a simple question, one that Dr Craig has never been able to effectively answer.

In a logical argument the PREMISES are drawn from what we know to be true.
The first premis of Dr Craig's Kalaam fails because it is not known to be true. It is just a guess.
It is an ABDUCTION as Dr Craig himself states. ABDUCTIVE reasoning is informed guesswork - not a known fact.

In DEDUCTIVE reasoning the conclusion is a direct result of the facts available.
In ABDUCTIVE reasoning (guessing), it is a likely inference.

Dr Craig's first premis is an abduction (guess), not a deduction (conclusion drawn from the evidence).

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.
Sure, according to Dr Craig - God. Now please answer the question: Name one thing that came onto being WITH a cause?

NO...God did NOT begin to exist, therefore he doesnt fall under P1.

SMH
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2016, 11:05:46 PM »
You want an example of something that came into being that was caused? Are you serious?
Yes, of course. Otherwise the first premis is useless. Of course you need an example.
Quote

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.

The better question is, give an example of something that came into being UNCAUSED.
Why? I am not claiming to know, and am not basing a logical argumentupon claiming to know. I am asking what experienceof ex-nihilo creation the first premis is drawn from - nobody seems to be able to answer, other than pretending not to understand the question.
Quote

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.

IN terms of the universe, if all space, time and energy came into being, then by logical deduction, space, time and energy were all caused.
How is that a logical deduction? Deduced from what example? None right?

You say that everything that begins to exist has a cause, I ask for an example - you appear not to even grasp the question.
A premis needs to be drawn from something - what makes you think that something that begins to exist must have a cause?
It is a simple question, one that Dr Craig has never been able to effectively answer.

In a logical argument the PREMISES are drawn from what we know to be true.
The first premis of Dr Craig's Kalaam fails because it is not known to be true. It is just a guess.
It is an ABDUCTION as Dr Craig himself states. ABDUCTIVE reasoning is informed guesswork - not a known fact.

In DEDUCTIVE reasoning the conclusion is a direct result of the facts available.
In ABDUCTIVE reasoning (guessing), it is a likely inference.

Dr Craig's first premis is an abduction (guess), not a deduction (conclusion drawn from the evidence).

Look around. Name me 1 thing that came into being uncaused.
Sure, according to Dr Craig - God. Now please answer the question: Name one thing that came onto being WITH a cause?

NO...God did NOT begin to exist, therefore he doesnt fall under P1.

SMH
Yes, that was my point. God does not fall under P1, so we have one example that defeats P1 (because it came into being uncaused).
What I keep asking for is one example of anything that came into being CAUSED.

There needs to be something in the set of things that began to exist and were caused or P1 collapses.

So is there an example to support P1? Something that began to exist and was caused?

It would ONLY be an example if you could show or give an example of something that is eternal.

Are you trolling?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2016, 11:07:45 PM »
As a further example we have quantum fluctuations, where energetic particles appear spontaneously without a cause.

So as far as I can see the only known examples of anything beginning to exist do not have a cause, and we have yet to identify an example of anything that began to exist that does have a cause.

No, energetic particles do not appear without a cause. They come from a sea of fluctuating energy.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2016, 11:10:58 PM »
As a further example we have quantum fluctuations, where energetic particles appear spontaneously without a cause.

So as far as I can see the only known examples of anything beginning to exist do not have a cause, and we have yet to identify an example of anything that began to exist that does have a cause.

No, energetic particles do not appear without a cause. They come from a sea of fluctuating energy.
Where they come from is not a 'cause'. We also have radioactive decay, which is not known to be caused.
I keep asking for just one example of ANYTHING that began to exist that is known to be caused, why is that so hard?

You are referring to virtual particles...They do not come from nothing uncaused but a sea of fluctuating energy. The quantum vacum is NOT nothing.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Hereorthere

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2016, 11:13:00 PM »
As a further example we have quantum fluctuations, where energetic particles appear spontaneously without a cause.

So as far as I can see the only known examples of anything beginning to exist do not have a cause, and we have yet to identify an example of anything that began to exist that does have a cause.

No, energetic particles do not appear without a cause. They come from a sea of fluctuating energy.
Where they come from is not a 'cause'. We also have radioactive decay, which is not known to be caused.
I keep asking for just one example of ANYTHING that began to exist that is known to be caused, why is that so hard?
You shot down earlier answers because they came from something else. How is what you are doing here any different?

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Hereorthere

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2016, 11:16:03 PM »
One plank time began to exist and was caused by the big bang.

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #37 on: February 29, 2016, 11:17:33 PM »
As a further example we have quantum fluctuations, where energetic particles appear spontaneously without a cause.

So as far as I can see the only known examples of anything beginning to exist do not have a cause, and we have yet to identify an example of anything that began to exist that does have a cause.

No, energetic particles do not appear without a cause. They come from a sea of fluctuating energy.
Where they come from is not a 'cause'. We also have radioactive decay, which is not known to be caused.
I keep asking for just one example of ANYTHING that began to exist that is known to be caused, why is that so hard?

You are referring to virtual particles...They do not come from nothing uncaused but a sea of fluctuating energy. The quantum vacum is NOT nothing.
Again I ask for just one example of anything known to have begun to exist that was caused.
Just one please?

Coming from somewhere is not the same as being caused, and by the way the 'sea of energy' you posit is just a hypothesis.

What I am asking for is an example of ANYTHING that began to exist that was caused.

Everything we know came into existence from a cause, whether material or efficient. I cant believe you have even asked this question.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #38 on: February 29, 2016, 11:20:48 PM »
One plank time began to exist and was caused by the big bang.
Oh ok. Then the defeater to the Kalam is simple. The Big Bang caused the creation of the universe.

Oh dear.

Right, i am going to stop responding to you.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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D. Alexander

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2016, 12:38:49 AM »
I'd really consider reading Craig's work on the Kalam because he's repeatedly called it a metaphysical principle.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a being that is uncaused and causes something defeats the premise in the Kalam.

Your usage of the word axiomatic seems confusing to me at least because it doesn't even seem to remotely follow from a uncaused being causing something that the causal principle is not axiomatic.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 12:40:31 AM by I'm A Heart-Shaped Coffin »

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2016, 01:04:25 AM »
...Why do you think everything that came into existence has a cause? Based upon what evidence?

Because a non-existent 'thing' bringing itself into existence doesn't parse.

Can a light switch turn itself on? If so, does it 'decide' when to do so?

Can a billiard ball moving towards the right hand back pocket autonomously change direction and move in reverse back towards the player holding the billiard cue which first set it in motion?

If 'things' can spontaneously/unexpectedly pop into (and out of) existence without any prior cause, you can kiss goodbye to the Unified Theory of Everything - and the fundamental principle of science we call "repeatability".
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igr

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2016, 01:16:42 AM »
I'm A Heart-Shaped Coffin #69,  The problem with cause in the KCA is this - Initially God exists in timelessness.  God exists alone.  Everything about God is a state.  A state cannot be the cause of something non-static.  Hence God cannot be the causer of the process that resulted in the coming into existence of the unuverse.  For this the Libertarian Agent is fabricated as an imagined plot device that causes/triggers this process.  Problem solved.

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neopolitan

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2016, 02:15:37 AM »
Logic of an Apologist
...Accuses WLC of not understanding how to formulate a basic/valid sylogism.

No I don't.  I'm sure he knows and I even give most of his syllogisms the stamp of approval (structurally) - "Each of these arguments appears logically correct, with the exception of Argument 6." (Argument 6 is the argument from absurdity.)  And I accuse him of adding a "Bonus Conclusion" to Argument 2 (basically the first cause argument).  For the most part, I object to the content, not the structure, but I discuss the content in other articles.

Note that, until recently, the single person complimenting me on this article used his real name.

Please try again.

Sweet Probability
...Probability smoke & mirrors. Gobbledygook.

I know probability is difficult, so you probably didn't read it.  But you are right to an extent in that smoke and mirrors is precisely the approach that WLC uses in this case.  I'm sorry that it's all a bit complex for you.  Perhaps someone else can critique it in a more useful way.

Taxi Ride
...thinks there is no such thing as the taxi cab fallacy. Accuses WLC of channeling himself writing/answering his own fan mail. (The problem is, neo's blog has anonymous folks applauding neo.)

Let me google that for you.  Google tailors searches, of course, but my blog is #2 on the list when I search for this fallacy (and #5 when I go through lmgfy).  There are more hits than when I first searched, but the point is that it's something that Craig borrowed from Schopenhauer without making it clear what he had done.

No anonymous people applauding this article.  In fact, no-one applauding it at all.  :(

WLC's use of quotes
...More fixation on WLC's use of the term "taxi cab". Standard quibbling - he said/they said/no he didn't/yes he did.
...blah blah blah.

Hm, so looking at the facts behind Craig's claims in his debates is just blah blah blah, huh?  No wonder you think he won them then.  There's a lot more in there than Craig's taxi cab fallacy - how about you try again?

WLC's Historical Method
...Doesn't like WLC using the same widely-used historical methods as other folks.
But if WLC was an atheist/bible skeptic it would be OK.

You seem to misunderstand again, and this was by far the shortest article.  The problem is not so much the explanatory method as used by historians, but more that Craig is misapplying this method in another field altogether.  And the fact that his explanations often fail to simplify.

Thats Not Evidence
...neo 'splaining' stuff to newbie counter-apologists in case they accidentally mistake not-evidence for evidence.

I detect a trend here.  No, this is not "neosplaining" (copywrite pending).  It's me explaining that Craig has things back to front and, as I write, "is arguing that the probability of evidence is affected by the ability of a hypothesis to explain that evidence" - as if the hypothesis acts on the world.

But by now I'm guessing that you didn't read it, so I should not take your brief criticisms seriously.  (And by no means should I put together a response in this thread, let alone write more words in response to your critiques than you put in those critiques.)

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kurros

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2016, 02:41:16 AM »
I'd really consider reading Craig's work on the Kalam because he's repeatedly called it a metaphysical principle.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a being that is uncaused and causes something defeats the premise in the Kalam.

Your usage of the word axiomatic seems confusing to me at least because it doesn't even seem to remotely follow from a uncaused being causing something that the causal principle is not axiomatic.
Well simply that cause and effect is a metaphysical notion, not a scientific law. It is not universal or axiomatic.

A premis needs to be something known to be true - it is known that cause and effect is not universal and breaks down at the quantum scale, hence the first premis is defeated.

There is a BIG difference between a metaphysical notion and a scientific law.

Actually cause and effect doesn't even formally exist in Newtonian mechanics. There are simply differential equations describing how systems evolve in time. One simply says "the state of the system at time t_1 is A" and from the equations can infer that "the state of the system at time t_2 will be B". That is all. You don't have to talk about cause and effect at all, that is just language that we humans add on top of the equations so that we can understand how they work more easily. And in fact, those two statements can be reversed in time in Newtonian mechanics, I.e. you can tell what past states were from future states, making the "causal" direction ambiguous.

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Lion IRC

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2016, 02:57:29 AM »
Neo, you're right. I didn't read them. I listened to them - can't drive and read at the same time.
And my quick impressions posted under each link are a summary of my initial response.
I think you're on very shaky ground - do you always lead with your chin when boxing?

I don't want to bob and weave or skirmish back and forth from one random point to the next ranging over all the blog articles simultaneously.

I'd rather start with one and do it to death. Then, move on to the next.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.