Friendly Banjo Atheist

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Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« on: February 29, 2016, 02:40:25 AM »
At the bottom of each of his posts you see this

Craig's top errors:
Logic - Probabilities - Taxi-Cabs - Quotes - Historical Methods - Explanatory Evidence

Click on them for some heavy and scholarly criticism of WLC, including attacks on his intellectual honesty.

I would be interested to hear WLC defenders respond to Neo on these.  (EDIT: I am not endorsing an attack on WLC's dishonesty, nor defending WLC against such an attack here. I am simply drawing attention to Neo's blog posts about WLC and eager to see responses from WLC defenders.)
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 01:24:52 PM by Friendly Banjo Atheist »
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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2016, 03:03:00 AM »
Yet, he still wins debate after debate after debate..

Interesting
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 03:12:34 AM »
Yet, he still wins debate after debate after debate..

Interesting

Wins what? How do you 'win' such debates? I have never seen him in a debate where his premises were even accepted, let alone were they established.

I have never seen a debate where his premises have even been refuted.
One such debater even had to lie to try and cut one of his premises.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

3

Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2016, 03:23:48 AM »
Yet, he still wins debate after debate after debate..

Interesting

Wins what? How do you 'win' such debates? I have never seen him in a debate where his premises were even accepted, let alone were they established.


I have never seen a debate where his premises have even been refuted.
One such debater even had to lie to try and cut one of his premises.
Well take the Kalam for example:
Premis one: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Well quantum physics disproved that more than a century ago. Cause and effect is a philosophical notion, it is not a scientific law.
We also have no other examples of anything beginning to exist ex-nihilo upon which to base that premis, not a single one. Hence it is not at all reliable.

Every time I have seen Dr Craig apply the Kalam in debate these objections are made, but never addressed.

Quantum physics has not disproved that.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

4

Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2016, 03:29:54 AM »
Yet, he still wins debate after debate after debate..

Interesting

Wins what? How do you 'win' such debates? I have never seen him in a debate where his premises were even accepted, let alone were they established.


I have never seen a debate where his premises have even been refuted.
One such debater even had to lie to try and cut one of his premises.
Well take the Kalam for example:
Premis one: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Well quantum physics disproved that more than a century ago. Cause and effect is a philosophical notion, it is not a scientific law.
We also have no other examples of anything beginning to exist ex-nihilo upon which to base that premis, not a single one. Hence it is not at all reliable.

Every time I have seen Dr Craig apply the Kalam in debate these objections are made, but never addressed.

Quantum physics has not disproved that.
Sure it has, cause and effect are not axiomatic. Quantum physics established that long ago. You also need an example upon which to draw a premis - as I said we have no examples of ex-nihilo creation known to have been caused upon which to base the first premis.

A premis needs to be based upon something known to be true - whether universes need to be caused or not is not known. And we have no experience of other universes for comparison.

How has physics PROVED that something can come from nothing?
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

5

kravarnik

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 03:31:14 AM »
At the bottom of each of his posts you see this

Craig's top errors:
Logic - Probabilities - Taxi-Cabs - Quotes - Historical Methods - Explanatory Evidence

Click on them for some heavy and scholarly criticism of WLC, including attacks on his intellectual honesty.

I would be interested to hear WLC defenders respond to Neo on these.

I don't know of a philosopher, whose work isn't attacked by other philosopher. If you looked hard enough, you'd build the same case for Dennett. For Plantinga. For Aristotle. For Plato. For anyone.

Why should we be bothered by this, other than intellectual interest in the points they make? And how are they any different than people criticizing WLC here?


What is so special about WLC, for you guys, that you follow him around and seek to discredit him in any way possible?


Academics object to his work?!?!?! WOAH, this is unheard of - a philosopher's work being criticized by other philosophers. Other intellectuals claiming that WLC is wrong? WOAH, this is astounding - there's no other like him, no other whose work intellectuals criticize!


I hope you don't think about us believing, or claiming, that WLC doesn't meet any criticism, or that he's infallible and nobody should ever object to him. That's perfectly normal - he's a philosopher, arguing for God, when the academia has been secularized for the past 150-200 years. What would you expect?


It's like going to a vegan conference, yelling "I LOVe MEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT." The outcome of it is expected. The same with WLC. He argues for God among people, most of whom do not believe in God. It would be the same, if he was cosmologist arguing against the Big Bang - he would have been criticized. Or a biologist arguing against Theory of Evolution.


The academia has bias. I wouldn't expect anything less.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 03:33:52 AM by kravarnik »
"For though the splendour of His eternal glory overtax our mind's best powers, it cannot fail to see that He is beautiful. We must in truth confess that God is most beautiful, and that with a beauty which, though it transcend our comprehension, forces itself upon our perception." Saint Hilary

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Steve B

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 03:36:09 AM »
Yet, he still wins debate after debate after debate..

Interesting

Wins what? How do you 'win' such debates? I have never seen him in a debate where his premises were even accepted, let alone were they established.


I have never seen a debate where his premises have even been refuted.
One such debater even had to lie to try and cut one of his premises.
Well take the Kalam for example:
Premis one: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Well quantum physics disproved that more than a century ago.

No it didn't.  There is a cause - effect relationship in all quantum physics. . . just like the rest of physics.  The only difference in QM is that the cause / effect relationship is mathematically described in terms of averages.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 03:38:05 AM by Steve B »

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Rostos

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 03:37:20 AM »
Yet, he still wins debate after debate after debate..

Interesting

Wins what? How do you 'win' such debates? I have never seen him in a debate where his premises were even accepted, let alone were they established.


I have never seen a debate where his premises have even been refuted.
One such debater even had to lie to try and cut one of his premises.
Well take the Kalam for example:
Premis one: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Well quantum physics disproved that more than a century ago. Cause and effect is a philosophical notion, it is not a scientific law.
We also have no other examples of anything beginning to exist ex-nihilo upon which to base that premis, not a single one. Hence it is not at all reliable.

Every time I have seen Dr Craig apply the Kalam in debate these objections are made, but never addressed.

Quantum physics has not disproved that.
Sure it has, cause and effect are not axiomatic. Quantum physics established that long ago. You also need an example upon which to draw a premis - as I said we have no examples of ex-nihilo creation known to have been caused upon which to base the first premis.

A premis needs to be based upon something known to be true - whether universes need to be caused or not is not known. And we have no experience of other universes for comparison.

How has physics PROVED that something can come from nothing?
Why would it need to? What did God come from?

God is eternal. He never began to exist, therefore he didnt come from anywhere.
"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
Isiah 55:8

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." - Mathew 23-12

8

Steve B

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 03:40:26 AM »
That's what I just said. . . are you flip flopping?  Are you agreeing that everything that begins to exist has a cause?  Including in the world of QM?

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kravarnik

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 03:41:51 AM »
I think the intention is to explore these concepts, not to discredit or attack anyone. Philosophy at it's very best is a discussion, an exchange of ideas.

You, perhaps, aren't familiar with the history of it:

FBA, neo and some others, have been constantly making threads about WLC, supposed "lying" on his part, supposed "deception" on his part, supposed "charlatanry" and the such.


At some point it becomes tiresome. What is so surprising that others object to WLC, seriously? So, if you thought certain argument as GOOD should we now bring all the scholarly and academic work that has ever been done against that argument and ask you to refute it?


When FBA brings some famous atheistic argument, we do not open special threads, about the guy making the arugment, and all the academics who object to it. And I wonder why people proceed like this with WLC? What has WLC done? He believes the things he does, like any other philosopher. He argues for what he believes, and thinks it's truthful - like any other philosopher, like any other person.


This is getting very, very tiresome and annoying. Now, FBA asks us to argue against academics, and all the criticisms, remarks, objections they've made to WLC's work, which are included in neo's signature. Why? When you believe Dennett, do you go through all the objections, from all the academics, that Dennett has faced, argue against it? And if you haven't, should we constantly remind you and make threads about how many academics there are, who have argued aagainst Dennett's positions?


What do you aim to achieve with this?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 03:43:24 AM by kravarnik »
"For though the splendour of His eternal glory overtax our mind's best powers, it cannot fail to see that He is beautiful. We must in truth confess that God is most beautiful, and that with a beauty which, though it transcend our comprehension, forces itself upon our perception." Saint Hilary

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Lion IRC

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 03:54:20 AM »
At the bottom of each of his posts you see this

Craig's top errors:
Logic - Probabilities - Taxi-Cabs - Quotes - Historical Methods - Explanatory Evidence

Click on them for some heavy and scholarly criticism of WLC, including attacks on his intellectual honesty.

I would be interested to hear WLC defenders respond to Neo on these.

neo wouldn't get away with saying much of his webpage content here.
He would get 'spanked'.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

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Architecto

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 04:01:15 AM »
At the bottom of each of his posts you see this

Craig's top errors:
Logic - Probabilities - Taxi-Cabs - Quotes - Historical Methods - Explanatory Evidence

Click on them for some heavy and scholarly criticism of WLC, including attacks on his intellectual honesty.

I would be interested to hear WLC defenders respond to Neo on these.

neo wouldn't get away with saying much of his webpage content here.
He would get 'spanked'.

Getting sissy slapped isn't getting spanked.  ;-)

12

Lion IRC

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 05:07:06 AM »
LOL
Smack talk. Bring it! :)

I suspect neo will be along shortly.
Let's see who wants to try and formally put up or shut up...err, I mean defend one of his key contentions.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

13

Lion IRC

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 05:09:24 AM »
Banjo Atheist talks a big game. Maybe he wants another formal debate.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

14

Friendly Banjo Atheist

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Re: Has Anyone Noticed Neopolitan's "Craig's Top Errors"?
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 12:12:07 PM »
Banjo Atheist talks a big game. Maybe he wants another formal debate.

Banjo Atheist talks a big game. Maybe he wants another formal debate.

Interesting.  All I did was invite attention to Neo's stuff on WLC.

And then there's Krav saying I am "constantly" starting threads accusing WLC of lying.

Utterly false. I have never once said WLC lies. I regret that the OP is read by some as me endorsing such a view. I don't.  Neo attacks his integrity and I invited others to comment. 

I am surprised to have struck such a sensitive nerve with this OP.


Lion, your talk of Neo inevitably getting smacked if he brought his stuff to RFF is intriguing.  Neo actually HAS brought his stuff to RFF (See OP.).Perhaps you could start the smackdown with some substance?  Or are you going to hide behind pithy?



Friendly Banjo Atheist
(Steve Baughman)

You've only got one life.  Play the banjo.