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Architecto

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Myth
« on: February 28, 2016, 11:30:38 PM »
Here are some nice little reads about Myth.
http://comminfo.rutgers.edu/~mjoseph/eliade.html
http://easyliteraturenotes.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-structural-study-of-myth-claude.html

But, instead of speaking in generalities, I wanted to post an example of myth, and how it is seen by scholars.

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The Symbolism of the Center
PARALLELING the archaic belief in the celestial archetypes of cities and temples, and even more fully attested by
documents, there is, we find, another series of beliefs, which refer
to their being invested with the prestige of the Center.
We examined this problem in an earlier work;
16 here we shall merely recapitulate our conclusions. The architectonic symbolism of the Center may be formulated as follows:

1. The Sacred Mountain where heaven and earth meet is situated at the center of the world.
. Every temple or palace and, by extension, every sacred city or royal
residence is a Sacred Mountain, thus becoming a Center.
3. Being an axis mundi, the sacred city or temple is regarded
as the meeting point of heaven, earth, and hell.

A few examples will illustrate each of these symbols:
1. According to Indian beliefs, Mount Meru rises at the center of the world, and above it shines the polestar.
The Ural-Altaic people also know of a central mountain, Sumeru, to whose summit the polestar
is fixed. Iranian beliefs hold that the sacred mountain Haraberezaiti (Elburz) is situated at the center of the earth and is linked with heaven.17 The Buddhist population
of Laos, north of Siam, know of Mount Zinnalo, at the center of the world. In the
Edda, Himinbjorg, as its name indicates, is a "celestial mountain"; it is here that the rainbow (Bifrost) reaches
the dome of the sky. Similar beliefs are found among the Finns, the Japanese, and other peoples. We are reminded that for the Semangs of the Malay Peninsula an immense rock, Batu-Ribn, rises at the center of the world; above it is hell. In past times, a tree trunk on Batu-Ribn rose into the sky.
....
Mount Tabor, in Palestine, could mean tabbur, i.e., navel, omphalos. Mount Gerizim, in the center of Palestine, was undoubtedly invested with the prestige of the Center, for it is called "navel of the earth" (tabbur eres; cf. Judges 9 : 37: ". . . See there come people down by the middle [Heb., navel] of the land . . /'). A tradition preserved by Peter Comestor relates that at the summer solstice the sun casts no shadow on the "Fountain of Jacob" (near Gerizim). And indeed, Peter continues, "sunt qui dicunt locum ilium esse umbilicum terrae nostrae habitabilis." Palestine, being the highest country because it was near to the summit of the cosmic mountain was not covered by the Deluge. A rabbinic text says: "The land of Israel was not submerged by the deluge."
21 For Christians, Golgotha was situated at the center of the world, since it was the summit of the cosmic mountain and at the same time the place where Adam had been created and buried. Thus the blood of the Saviour falls upon Adam's skull, buried precisely at the foot of the Cross, and redeems him. The belief that Golgotha is situated at the center of the world is preserved in the folklore of the Eastern Christians.
http://users.uoa.gr/~cdokou/MythLitMA/Eliade-EternalReturn.pdf

I bet not one modern Christian believes this now, because the myth is lost to them, but it was important to early Christians.  It's probably looked on by modern Christians as silly.

Yet...

Quote
The symbolism of the Center is considerably more complex, but the few aspects
to which we have referred will suffice for our purpose. We may add that the same symbolism
survived in the Western world down to the threshold of modern times. The very
ancient conception of the temple as the imago mundi, the idea that the sanctuary
reproduces the universe in its essence, passed
into the religious architecture of Christian Europe: the basilica of the first centuries of our era, like the medieval cathedral, symbolically reproduces the Celestial Jerusalem.
As to the symbolism of the mountain, of the Ascension, and of the "Quest for the Center/' they
are clearly attested in medieval literature, and appear, though only by allusion, in certain literary works of recent centuries.



More:

Quote
Divine Models of Rituals
EVERY RITUAL has a divine model, an archetype; this fact is well enough known for us to confine ourselves to recalling a few examples. "We must do what the gods did in the beginning" (Satapatha Brahma^a, VII, 2, 1,4). "Thus the gods did; thus men do" (Taittirlya Brahmana, l, 5, 9, 4).
This Indian adage summarizes all the theory underlying rituals in all countries. We find the theory among so-called primitive peoples no less than we do in developed cultures. The aborigines of southeastern Australia, for example, practice circumcision with a stone knife because it was thus that their ancestors taught them to do;
....
Quote
The Judaeo-Christian Sabbath is also an imitatio dei
The Sabbath rest reproduces the primordial gesture of the Lord, for it was on the seventh day
of the Creation that God ". . . rested . . . from all his work which he had made" (Genesis 2:2). The message of the Saviour is first of all an example which demands imitation. After washing his disciples' feet, Jesus said to them: "For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you" (John 13 : 15). Humility is only a virtue; but humility practiced after the Saviour's example is a religious
act and a means of salvation: "... as I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (John 13 : 34; 15 : 12). This Christian love is consecrated by the example of Jesus. Its actual practice annuls the sin of the human condition and makes man divine. He who believes in Jesus can do what He did; his limitations and impotence are abolished. "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also ..."
(John 14 : 12). The liturgy is precisely a commemoration of the life and Passion of the Saviour. We shall see later that this commemoration is in fact a reactualization of those days.



Here are more references to myth in Christianity:

Quote
This is why, where belief in the resurrection of the body
69,
THE REGENERATION OF TIME is prevalent, it is also believed that it will take place at the beginning of the year, that is, at the opening of a new epoch. Lehmann and Pedersen have shown this for the Semitic peoples, while Wensinck 15 has collected copious evidence for it in the Christian tradition. For example:
"The Almighty awakens the bodies (at Epiphany) together with the spirits/"
16 A Pahlavi text given by Darmesteter says: "It is in the month Fravardin, on the day Xurdath, that the Lord Ormazd will produce the resurrection and the 'second body* and that the world will be saved from impotence
with the demons, the drugs, etc. And there will be abundance everywhere; there will be no more want of
food; the world will be pure, man liberated from the opposition [of the evil spirit] and immortal for ever/*
17
Qazwlnl, for his part, says that, on the day of Nawroz, God resuscitated the dead "and he gave them back their souls, and he gave his orders to the sky, which shed rain upon them, and thus it is that people have adopted the custom of pouring water on that day."
18 The very close connections between the ideas of Creation through water ( aquatic cosmogony, deluge that periodically regenerates historical life, rain), birth, and resurrection are confirmed by this saying from the Talmud: "God hath three keys, of rain, of birth, of rising of the dead."


The origin of the Apocalypse: the Iranians.
Quote
It appears more and more probable that the myth of an end of the world by fire, from which the
good will escape unharmed, is of Iranian origin (cfl, for example, Rundahisn, XXX, 18), at least in the form known to the "western mages" who, as Cumont has shown,20 disseminated it in the West. Stoicism, the Sibylline Oracles (for example II, 53), and Judaeo-Christian literature make this myth the foundation of their apocalypses and their eschatology. Strange as it may seem, the myth was consoling. In fact, fire renews the world; through it will come the restoration of "a new world, free from old age, death, decomposition and corruption, living eternally, increasing eternally, when the dead shall rise, when immortality shall come to the living, when the world shall be perfectly renewed" (Ta5t9 XIX, 14, 89).
21 This, then, is an apokatastasis from which the good have nothing to fear. The final catastrophe will put an end to history, hence will restore man to eternity and beatitude.

Quote
Windisch has shown the importance of these Mazdean ideas for the Christian apologist
Lactantius.
27 God created the world in six days, and on the seventh he rested; hence the world will endure for six aeons, during which "evil will conquer and triumph" on earth. During the seventh millennium, the prince of demons will be chained and humanity will know a thousand years of rest and perfect justice. After this the demon will escape from his chains and resume war upon the just; but at last he will be vanquished and at the end of the eighth millennium the world will be re-created for eternity. Obviously, this division of history into three acts and eight millennia was also known to the Christian chiliasts, but there can be no doubt that it is Iranian in structure, even if a similar eschatological vision of history was disseminated throughout the Mediterranean East.

Quote
A series of calamities will announce the approach of the end of the world; and the first of them will be the fall of Rome and the destruction of the Roman Empire, a frequent anticipation in the Judaeo-Christian apocalypse, but also not unknown to the Iranians.
29 The apocalyptic syndrome is, furthermore, common to all these traditions. Both Lactantius and the Bahman-Yast announce that "the year will be shortened, the month will diminish, and the day will contract," a vision of cosmic and human deterioration that we have also found in India (where human life decreases from 80,000 to 100 years) and that astrological doctrines popularized in the Greco-Oriental world.
Then the mountains will crumble and the earth become smooth, men will desire death and envy the dead, and but a tenth of them will survive.
http://users.uoa.gr/~cdokou/MythLitMA/Eliade-EternalReturn.pdf


(BTW, here is an excellent summation of the Daniel vs. Zand-i Wahman yasn discussion, in case Christians want to explore which apocalypse came first, J-C, or Zoroastrian - if anyone really cares....)
https://www.academia.edu/1026516/Persian_influence_on_Daniel_and_Jewish_Apocalyptic_Literature



So, I'll stop here and see what kind of response this gets.  Probably "myth is a lie".... sigh... :-/

1

Architecto

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Re: Myth
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 11:48:48 PM »
More:

"Simplifying, we might say that, among the Iranians as among the Jews and Christians, the "history" apportioned to the universe is limited, and that the end of the world coincides with the destruction of sinners, the resurrection of the dead, and the victory of eternity over time. But although this doctrine becomes increasingly popular during the first century B.C. and the early centuries of our era, it does not succeed in finally doing away with the traditional doctrine of periodic regeneration of the world through annual repetition of the Creation.
We saw in the preceding chapter that vestiges of this latter doctrine were preserved among the Iranians until far into the Middle Ages. Similarly dominant in pre-Messianic Judaism, it was never totally eliminated, for rabbinic circles hesitated to be precise as to the duration that God had fixed for the cosmos and confined themselves to declaring that the illud tempus would certainly arrive one day.
In Christianity, on the other hand, the evangelical tradition itself implies that Baoiheia rov oeov is already present "among" evros those who believe, and that hence the illud tempus is eternally of the present and accessible to anyone, at any moment, through metanoia. Since what is involved is a religious experience wholly different from the traditional experience, since what is involved is faith, Christianity translates the periodic regeneration of the world into a regeneration of the human individual. But for him who shares in this eternal nunc of the reign of God, history ceases as totally as it does for the man of the archaic cultures, who abolishes it periodically. Consequently, for the Christian too, history can be regenerated, by and through each individual believer, even before the Saviour's second coming, when it will utterly cease for all Creation."
....
"In other words, history can be abolished, and consequently renewed, a number of times, before the final eschaton is realized. Indeed, the Christian liturgical year is based upon a periodic and real repetition of the Nativity, Passion, death, and Resurrection of Jesus, with all that this mystical drama implies for a Christian; that is, personal and cosmic regeneration through reactualization in concreto of the birth, death, and resurrection of the Saviour."


How many Christians today knew that Christians thought Ghengis Kahn was the new David because of the myth of the archetype?

"The Christianity of the popular European strata never succeeded in abolishing either the theory of the archetype (which transformed a historical personage into an exemplary hero and a historical event into a mythical category) or the cyclical and astral theories (according to which history was justified, and the sufferings provoked by it assumed an eschatological meaning). Thus to give only a few examples the barbarian invaders of the High Middle Ages were assimilated to the Biblical archetype Gog and Magog and thus received an ontological status and an eschatological function.
A few centuries later, Christians were to regard Genghis Khan as a new David, destined to accomplish the prophecies of Ezekiel. Thus interpreted, the sufferings and catastrophes provoked by the appearance of the barbarians on the medieval historical horizon were "tolerated" by the same process that, some thousands of years earlier, had made it possible to tolerate the terrors of history in the ancient East. It is such justifications of historical catastrophes that today still make life possible for tens of millions of men, who continue to recognize,
in the unremitting pressure of events, signs of the divine will or of an astral fatality."

2

Architecto

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Re: Myth
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 12:01:53 AM »
The axis mundi and the Pillars of the Earth.

Quote
The sacred pole of the Achilpa supports their world and ensures communication with the sky. Here we have the prototype of a cosmological image that has been very widely disseminated-the cosmic pillars that support heaven and at the same time open the road to the world Sacred Space and Making the World Sacred 35
of the gods. Until their conversion to Christianity, the Celts and Germans still maintained their worship of
such sacred pillars. The Chronicum Laurissense breve, written about 800, reports that in the course of one of
his wars against the Saxons (772), Charlemagne destroyed the temple and the sacred wood of their "famous
~~insul" in the town of Eresburg. Rudolf of Fulda (c. 860) adds that this famous pillar is the "pillar of
the universe which, as it were, supports all things" (universalis columna quasi sustinens omnia). The same
cosmological image is found not only among the Romans (Horace, Odes, 111, 3) and in ancient India, where we
hear of the skambha, the cosmic pillar (Rig Veda, I, 105; X, 89, 4; etc.), but also among the Canary Islanders
and in such distant cultures as those of the Kwakiutl (British Columbia) and of the Nad'a of Flores Island
(Indonesia). The Kwakiutl believe that a copper pole passes through the three cosmic levels (underworld,
earth, sky) ; the point at which it enters the sky is the 66 door to the world above." The visible image of this
cosmic pillar in the sky is the Milky Way. But the work of the gods, the universe, is repeated and imitated by
men on their own scale. The axis di, seen in the sky the form of the Milky Way, appears in the ceremonial
house in the form of a sacred pole. It is the trunk of a Cedar tree, thirty to thirty-five feet high, over half of
wbch projects through the roof. This pillar plays a 36 The Sacred and the Profane
primary part in the ceremonies; it confers a cosmic structure on the house. In the ritual songs the house is
called "our world" and the candidates for initiation, who live in it, proclaim: "I am at the Center of the
World. . . . I am at the Post of the World," and so on.'
The same assimilation of the cosmic pillar to the sacred pole and of the ceremonial house to the universe is
found among the Nad'a of Flores Island. The sacrificial pole is called the "Pole of Heaven" and is believed to
support the sky.'

This clearly reminds us of the OT and the pillars in ancient Jewish myth.  What was Samson pulling down? Not just the temple, but the entire religion - nay, universe, and God - of the Philistines.

3

Architecto

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Re: Myth
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 02:39:29 AM »



(WLC in his younger days)

4

Architecto

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Re: Myth
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 12:54:37 PM »
See, there you have it.

Try to talk about myth with Christians and they suddenly grow suspiciously silent...

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kravarnik

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Re: Myth
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 01:39:47 PM »
I am sorry to break the silence, but I'm actually so glad that nobody is engaging with this. It would have been very frustrating to read anything further said on this topic, coming from Architecto or other proponents of these notions here.


Thank you, people. You spared me so much frustration. I declare this a miracle, a Divine intervention.
"For though the splendour of His eternal glory overtax our mind's best powers, it cannot fail to see that He is beautiful. We must in truth confess that God is most beautiful, and that with a beauty which, though it transcend our comprehension, forces itself upon our perception." Saint Hilary

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Bertuzzi

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Re: Myth
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2016, 03:35:28 PM »
See, there you have it.

Try to talk about myth with Christians and they suddenly grow suspiciously silent...

You should email Plantinga about it.
Husband. Father. Photographer. Blogger.

capturingchristianity.com

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RichardChad

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Re: Myth
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2016, 04:25:23 PM »
See, there you have it.

Try to talk about myth with Christians and they suddenly grow suspiciously silent...

You should email Plantinga about it.

Bertuzzi +1
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

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D. Alexander

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Re: Myth
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2016, 04:36:21 PM »
What happened to Randy?

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bdsimon

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Re: Myth
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 04:51:40 PM »
What happened to Randy?
Who is this Randy? All we have is hearsay and writings about him and some of his sayings... really just the stuff of myth.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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RichardChad

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Re: Myth
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 04:55:11 PM »
What happened to Randy?
Who is this Randy? All we have is hearsay and writings about him and some of his sayings... really just the stuff of myth.

Randy is the Anglo-Saxon god of fertility.
I'll believe you don't believe in objective moral values when you stop using terms like "right" and "wrong".

I'll believe you believe in determinism when you start saying things like "I'm so sorry you're determined to think that way"

11

Architecto

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Re: Myth
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2016, 11:07:18 PM »
I am sorry to break the silence, but I'm actually so glad that nobody is engaging with this. It would have been very frustrating to read anything further said on this topic, coming from Architecto or other proponents of these notions here.


Thank you, people. You spared me so much frustration. I declare this a miracle, a Divine intervention.

Sure, God (literally) forbade people from learning something...

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bdsimon

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Re: Myth
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2016, 11:37:40 AM »



(WLC in his younger days)
So what happened to Brent A.? Did he get banned again?
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Lion IRC

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Re: Myth
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2016, 03:33:43 PM »
See, there you have it.

Try to talk about myth with Christians and they suddenly grow suspiciously silent...

Hey!
I resent that. I only just saw this thread today. Why presume (prejudge) that everyone is ignoring it?
That's not a 'clear thinking' attitude is it?

All the cut-n-pastes you posted are interesting speculations. But that's about it.

I think The Transfiguration (another mountain motif) actually happened and you think it's a myth.

Where to from here?

Of course the mountain motif features prominently as a theme in religious theophanies. I don't see the problem.
This user will NEVER be posting at Reasonable Faith Forum again.

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Nunovalente

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Re: Myth
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2016, 04:00:29 PM »

Bruce Lee once said, "Boards don't hit back."

Myths dont change lives.
Faith is being confident in things hoped for, the conviction of facts not yet seen. Hebrews 11.
Everyone exercises faith in something. What is your faith in?