Poll: Science and Religion. Where do you stand?

[neopolitan]

Other for me.  Science and evolution are not things to be "believed in".

[searcherman]

@Jem
What you say about medicine is not just demonstrably false but quackery if practiced by a doctor.

[pat1911]

I think the poll question may be flawed. 

If you say you don't believe in evolution on this forum, it is likely that you'll hear an atheists start talking about evidence of adaptation. Not even young earth creationists believe adaption doesn't occur, and an ID proponent would likely argue that adaptation is evidence of good design.

Neo Darwinism is evolution as an unguided process, so a theistic evolutionist (for example) answering the question will not mean what most NDs evolutionists believe.

I believe in evolution, but not as an unguided process because that has not been established by the science, but is only assumed. I'm not a theistic evolutionist either, as that also hasn't been established.  Evolution could also be due to ID, and I'm inclined to think ID is necessary to explain the mechanisms of adaptation, but this too is not established.

I agree with you here Keith. Adaptation in species is seen for sure, but it is a huge leap from adaptive changes in one species to assumption that one species evolved into another. Genetic roadblocks prevent that. All of the experimental "proofs" offered by science do not lead to any species evolving into a completely different "kind".

Wiki's entry on "Speciation" proves that the fish remained fish and flies remained flies. No matter how much time elapses, there is no "proof" that all species evolved from a common ancestor. There is however a lot of guesswork and assumption couched in scientific jargon. Assumptions are not facts, so in essence we have a choice between two "belief" systems. Faith is required for belief in either one.

Intelligent design is demonstrated in all things. Undirected chance had nothing to do with life on this planet.

There are some good arguments against macro-evolution here. It does not mean I do not think it does not happen, but the evidence is sorely lacking. That does not make me a young-Earth creationist, it means that evidence needs to presented that it exists and the mechanism by which it occurs explained. Without evidence, it will forever be a theory. 

[kravarnik]

Voted other.

I believe induction and deduction are successful methods for gaining knowledge. When they are applied to a strict system of operation, where there are defined laws and rules of regularity, then it becomes even more successful.

Science... well, science uses these methods, but applied strictly to empirical phenomena, however, it is still done by people, so the wrong conclusions may be drawn, because people aren't inerrant. As obvious from the theory of evolution(how one makes the induction/deduction that a mind isn't behind it is beyond me, really - that's a mere assumption).


So, science may be good, because I think induction and deduction are good methods of gaining knowledge, however, as most things run by people, there are mistakes, bias and agenda. Which could potentially lead to deliberate distortions.

[lancia]

All of this talk about no evidence existing for macroevolution is wrong. There is evidence; you just are not aware of it.

First, macroevolution is evolution at or above the species level. That means speciation or the formation of new species is a type of macroevolution. In fact, speciation is a sufficient and necessary condition of macroevolution. Second, evidence of species formation has been observed (1) directly, as in the instantaneous process of speciation by polyploidy, or (2) indirectly, as in shared genetic, morphological, physiological, behavioral, and ecological traits seen in groups of species that are thought to be linked by origin. The latter, indirect method is the common way to infer macroevolution in cases in which the process of speciation simply takes too long to observe directly, such as when allopatric speciation occurs. What else could be done when the process takes far longer than many consecutive lifetimes of the observers???

In other words, when it is reasonable to expect to see direct evidence of macroevolution, as in speciation by polyploidy, such direct evidence is seen. When it is unreasonable to expect to see direct evidence of macroevolution, as in allopatric speciation, such direct evidence is not seen. But in this case, there is much indirect evidence of it having occurred.

[john doe]

Apologists should move on to the question of abiogenesis.  Evolution resulting in speciation is a forgone conclusion.

[Jem]

@Jem
What you say about medicine is not just demonstrably false but quackery if practiced by a doctor.

It's a strange thing about what is regarded as "quackery" these days. People are going to alternative health practitioners for one very good reason. The medical profession have sold out to 'big pharma', which puts profits before health. Don't you ever wonder why there are no "cures" for our ailments despite all the advances in medicine we keep hearing about?....there are only treatments of the symptoms....expensive ones. This is where science has taken us.

People are dropping like flies from completely preventable diseases like cancer and heart disease. The food industry is likewise complicit. Food is mass produced in mineral deficient soil, with artificial fertilizers and poisonous pesticides. Again money is put before health. Shelf life is their major concern so they virtually have to sell you dead food that cannot spoil because there is not a living organism left alive in it.

We are designed to eat living food with good gut flora and enzymes to aid digestion. Unless we grow our own organic produce, or can source it from organic growers, we are doomed to the ill health you see today.

Meat production is a travesty. Many of the animals we consume have never seen or eaten grass, but are fed an artificial diet designed to fatten up the animals which are injected with all sorts of chemicals, but not fed its natural food.

If you have ever seen what they do to chickens, you would never eat one again.

The fast food industry is the major contributor for obesity which is the number one killer because empty calories satisfy the taste buds but are starving the body of nutrients needed for even a measure of health. In essence, man's lifestyle is happily killing him. He is committing slow, delicious, suicide.

Ignorance is at the bottom of it and the system that produces our food and treats our resulting ill health is geared to make a lot of people rich because of that ignorance.

Have you never even investigated these things for yourself? Who rules the world after all? (1 John 5:19)

[searcherman]

@Jem
What you say about medicine is not just demonstrably false but quackery if practiced by a doctor.

It's a strange thing about what is regarded as "quackery" these days. People are going to alternative health practitioners for one very good reason. The medical profession have sold out to 'big pharma', which puts profits before health. Don't you ever wonder why there are no "cures" for our ailments despite all the advances in medicine we keep hearing about?....there are only treatments of the symptoms....expensive ones. This is where science has taken us.

People are dropping like flies from completely preventable diseases like cancer and heart disease. The food industry is likewise complicit. Food is mass produced in mineral deficient soil, with artificial fertilizers and poisonous pesticides. Again money is put before health. Shelf life is their major concern so they virtually have to sell you dead food that cannot spoil because there is not a living organism left alive in it.

We are designed to eat living food with good gut flora and enzymes to aid digestion. Unless we grow our own organic produce, or can source it from organic growers, we are doomed to the ill health you see today.

Meat production is a travesty. Many of the animals we consume have never seen or eaten grass, but are fed an artificial diet designed to fatten up the animals which are injected with all sorts of chemicals, but not fed its natural food.

If you have ever seen what they do to chickens, you would never eat one again.

The fast food industry is the major contributor for obesity which is the number one killer because empty calories satisfy the taste buds but are starving the body of nutrients needed for even a measure of health. In essence, man's lifestyle is happily killing him. He is committing slow, delicious, suicide.

Ignorance is at the bottom of it and the system that produces our food and treats our resulting ill health is geared to make a lot of people rich because of that ignorance.

Have you never even investigated these things for yourself? Who rules the world after all? (1 John 5:19)

Modern food production is environmentally destructive. But modern medicine and vaccines have been revolutionary in saving lives and only quacks outside of science say differently.

[Jem]

@Jem
What you say about medicine is not just demonstrably false but quackery if practiced by a doctor.

It's a strange thing about what is regarded as "quackery" these days. People are going to alternative health practitioners for one very good reason. The medical profession have sold out to 'big pharma', which puts profits before health. Don't you ever wonder why there are no "cures" for our ailments despite all the advances in medicine we keep hearing about?....there are only treatments of the symptoms....expensive ones. This is where science has taken us.

People are dropping like flies from completely preventable diseases like cancer and heart disease. The food industry is likewise complicit. Food is mass produced in mineral deficient soil, with artificial fertilizers and poisonous pesticides. Again money is put before health. Shelf life is their major concern so they virtually have to sell you dead food that cannot spoil because there is not a living organism left alive in it.

We are designed to eat living food with good gut flora and enzymes to aid digestion. Unless we grow our own organic produce, or can source it from organic growers, we are doomed to the ill health you see today.

Meat production is a travesty. Many of the animals we consume have never seen or eaten grass, but are fed an artificial diet designed to fatten up the animals which are injected with all sorts of chemicals, but not fed its natural food.

If you have ever seen what they do to chickens, you would never eat one again.

The fast food industry is the major contributor for obesity which is the number one killer because empty calories satisfy the taste buds but are starving the body of nutrients needed for even a measure of health. In essence, man's lifestyle is happily killing him. He is committing slow, delicious, suicide.

Ignorance is at the bottom of it and the system that produces our food and treats our resulting ill health is geared to make a lot of people rich because of that ignorance.

Have you never even investigated these things for yourself? Who rules the world after all? (1 John 5:19)

Modern food production is environmentally destructive.

Environmentally destructive?....that is only half the story. Modern food production is making people sick. In more affluent western nations, people might be living longer lives...but certainly not healthier ones. The system is designed to maintain a level of ill health...just enough to ensure a steady stream of customers for prescription and 'over the counter' medicines.....but not actually bad enough to kill you outright.

But modern medicine and vaccines have been revolutionary in saving lives and only quacks outside of science say differently.

Sometimes it is the doctors who are the quacks inside science. There is a whole industry designed around ill health....but little is done to prevent it. Look around you and see how many obese people you see in fast food restaurants eating things that pretend to be food....causing an epidemic of type 2 diabetes and other junk food related illnesses, costing a fortune in medical expenses.  The ill health industry is laughing all the way to the bank...that includes the charlatans in the health food industry who are just as guilty. Money is the motivator. This world is not ruled by God which is why greed drives everything. (1 John 5:19) 

How much do you really know about the other side of this argument? Isn't it better to hear both sides before making a judgment?

http://www.thinktwice.com/ploys.htm

http://www.thinktwice.com/articles.htm

http://www.stopmandatoryvaccination.com/vaccine-dangers/

Weigh it up.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm new and don't have the ability to vote yet, but I'd vote for the first option. I'm Christian but have no problem accepting evolution and science.

[searcherman]

This is debunked again and again by almost all experts. Those few you find are frauds and quacks. You are spreading dangerous stuff that gets kids killed.

[Jem]

This is debunked again and again by almost all experts. Those few you find are frauds and quacks. You are spreading dangerous stuff that gets kids killed.

I am not spreading anything. I am merely drawing attention to the fact that there are two sides to every story.

In a world ruled by the devil deception is bound to rear its ugly head.  People are free to examine the issue from both sides and decide for themselves. Unless you can prove that vaccinations are as beneficial as they are claimed to be, you yourself could be promoting "dangerous stuff".

Who profits from them being forced on the population? Do you really know what is being injected into your body? Do you trust profit driven corporations to tell the whole truth? 

[pat1911]

I will just leave this here. Not safe for work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOeQnWxnHls&list=RDQOeQnWxnHls#t=51

[Jem]

I will just leave this here. Not safe for work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOeQnWxnHls&list=RDQOeQnWxnHls#t=51

The language in that clip is disgusting....not safe for Christians. 

[Rostos]

My understanding is that Macro evolution is not the contentious point, rather the MECHANISM which the evidence is very underwhelming.

From what I have read, Natural Selection lacks the necessary "horsepower" required to account for the vast diversity and complexity of life.