The Bible's position on slavery

[Iwantaconversation]

I have seen verses that indicate the Bible is positive on slavery and others that are negative. The thing is what is the view of this by more experienced Christians? Any people who have read the Bible thoroughly who can give me an understanding of how the Bible views this topic?

[kravarnik]

I have seen verses that indicate the Bible is positive on slavery and others that are negative. The thing is what is the view of this by more experienced Christians? Any people who have read the Bible thoroughly who can give me an understanding of how the Bible views this topic?

Hey, Iwantaconversation!


The Bible does indeed express some mixed points about slavery. But, we need to consider some things first, before we delve more deeply into this:

1) there's difference between regulation and promotion. Take for example laws regulating alcohol consumption - the government has such laws in tact, but it doesn't mean the government promotes alcohol drinking. Or, take for example smoking - the government has laws regulating it, but it doesn't mean it's promoted, or approved of.

2) the earliest manuscripts from Ancient Middle East show that slaves were property, as opposed to human beings, however, the Israelites seem to have exercised an entirely different concept to that of the surrounding nations - if we go by the Bible and what God is supposed to have instructed them there

3) the word slave in the Bible came into prominence after a certain year onward, prior to it the word slave was present in 2-3 occasions. The more proper term would be "servant," as often Israel's relationship to God was seen as that of "a slave to a master," but the Bible hardly expresses the notion that God bought Israel for money, or got Israel against their will. So the Biblical notion of slave, or servant, isn't exactly the same as the modern rendition of the word "slave."



Now, we can proceed with some points I want to raise and the textual support for them. The slavery in the Bible is different to that of other nations at the time, or to that of modern Colonial Slavery - in Africa. The concept in the Bible is the following:

- slaves have legal rights and status, and their masters breaking those rights rendered them subjects to justice

- slaves, most of the time, were acquired volunteerly - that is, they were either purchased with their volitional choice to be purchased, or they were people who got into a very bad situation, where they have nothing left to offer, but themselves, so they offered themselves(as slaves) for shelter, food, payment, etc.

- slaves could free themselves, and there was an expiration date of one owning a slave ; not only by themselves, but also by relatives


Here comes the textual support I can bring up for these points in the above:

" 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.

54 “‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God." - Leviticus 25:48-55

Notice - THEY SOLD THEMSELVES - which does not seem to imply enslavement, but rather volitional choice for one to participate in such a thing.


"40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God." - Leviticus 25:40-43

They are to be treated as hired workers, or temporary residents. Nor is one supposed to rule over them ruthlessly.


"7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[a] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." - Exodus 21:7-11

"26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth." - Exodus 21:26-27

Once again - conditions for releasing as well as rules of master-slave relationship. Also, penalty associated with those - if the master fails to comply with these, he is to release the slave for free.



In the end, I will provide a New Testament quote, where Paul says:

"8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." - 1 Timothy 1:8-11


Notice the law is made for UNGODLY people, which would include "slave traders/enslavers(some translations have this, as opposed to slave traders)." So, I believe the general picture is that slavery, as Colonial Slavery, is shunned upon and regulations of how this to be done properly are in tact. However, one must also notice that slavery in the Bible isn't a permanent state, but temporal ; also that Adam and Eve, the ideal state of affairs God initially created, weren't given slaves.


That's my take on it. I am not expert, so some of this may be faulty.

[Atheist in Louisiana]

The bible advocates for slavery by telling you how to do it.  If I tell you where to buy meth, how to make it into the most effective forms, and how to get those forms into your body, how much you can handle at a time, and give precautions to take to keep you safe while you use it, then I am endorsing meth use.  If I do that, then turn around and say, "Oh, but don't use meth", then I'm covering my butt just so that nobody can say that I endorse it, even though I do.

The bible endorses slavery, but doesn't even turn around and say "But don't own slaves".

Krav's analogy with cigs and alcohol are flawed.  The government doesn't tell you where to get them, how to treat them, how to use them, etc.  The government doesn't say any of the things about those products that the bible says about slavery.

Also, the bible was used to support slavery in the US, which it clearly does.

[kravarnik]

The bible advocates for slavery by telling you how to do it.  If I tell you where to buy meth, how to make it into the most effective forms, and how to get those forms into your body, how much you can handle at a time, and give precautions to take to keep you safe while you use it, then I am endorsing meth use.  If I do that, then turn around and say, "Oh, but don't use meth", then I'm covering my butt just so that nobody can say that I endorse it, even though I do.

The bible endorses slavery, but doesn't even turn around and say "But don't own slaves".

Krav's analogy with cigs and alcohol are flawed.  The government doesn't tell you where to get them, how to treat them, how to use them, etc.  The government doesn't say any of the things about those products that the bible says about slavery.

Also, the bible was used to support slavery in the US, which it clearly does.

I provided explicit Biblical verses, where SLAVE TRADERS are portrayed as ungodly, sinful, lawbreakers. I provided explicit Biblical verses, where those who are taken as slaves ought to be treated in accordance with the law, and never be kept as slaves endlessly, but after a period of time they should be released.


You had nothing to say against that, but proceeded to dismiss it by asserting your own view(which would be false, in light of what  the Bible says - see the verses I quoted).
And my analogy with the government is exactly precise - the government tells you to what degree you can use alcohol/tabaco, the government gives license to stores to sell them, the government regulates the activity. That  same thing happens in the Bible with slavery.


"“If a man is found stealing one of his brothers of the people of Israel, and if he treats him as a slave or sells him, then that thief shall die. So you shall purge the evil from your midst." - Deuteronomy 24:7

Here, it directly says IF SOMEONE STEALS(TAKES AWAY) ANOTHER PERSON AND STARTS TREATING HIM AS A SLAVE(basically the activity of "enslaving people" - taking them away for slavery)THEN IT IS A CRIME DESERVING CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. And then you go to say "yeah, the Bible promotes slavery(in the sense of Colonial slavery - where people were taken against their will, sold as slaves and treated as inherently inhumane objects, but tools).


Try to be more comprehensive. Asserting your position over mine, without saying anything to rebuke what I've provided, would not suffice to have your position justified at any rate. That's called rhetoric. Add substance.

The Bible:

- portrays slave traders and enslaving as evil(Deuteronomy 24:7 ; 1 Timothy 1:8-11)
- portrays harsh treatment of slaves as crime(Leviticus 25:53 ;  Leviticus 25:43)
- provides many, ensured, venues of freeing these slaves(Leviticus 25:54 ; Leviticus 25:40-41)
- provides equality under the law for slaves - they are to be under the same law the priests, kings, ordinary Jews are/were under(Leviticus 25:53 ; Leviticus 25:40)


So, I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Unless you can show me how the Bible promotes and regulates slavery to be done in the exact same way Colonial slavery took place, or modern slavery in Africa took place, then there's no "promotion" for such activity in the Bible, nor are any of the parallels you seek to draw true(between the Bible and Colonial slavery). Just because someone wrongfully used the BIble as justification to enforce something upon others, which is clearly absent from the Bible, doesn't make the Bible actually really promoting that said thing. With the same success, I may say "atheism promotes mass murdering" because some communist used atheism as justification to murder religious people. But that would be far from the truth and very incomprehensive of me. 

[Atheist in Louisiana]

Exodus 21  The whole thing is laws about slaves.  It never says that you shouldn't have slaves.

Exodus 21:7
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do.  But if she displeases her master, who had designated her for himself, he shall let her be redeemed."

This is a Hebrew selling his daughter.  That daughter is a sex slave forever, or until the man decides that he doesn't want her anymore.

21:2-6
"When you purchase a Hebrew slave, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he shall leave as a free person without any payment.  If he comes into service alone, he shall leave alone; if he comes with a wife, his wife shall leave with him.  But if his master gives him a wife and she bears his sons or daughters, the woman and her children belong to the master and the man shall leave alone.  If, however, the slave declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children; I will not leave as a free person,' his master shall bring him to God and there, at the door or doorpost, he shall pierce his ear with an awl, thus keeping him as his slave forever.

Hebrew slaves have to be let go after six years, unless you trick them and give him a wife and kids.  Then he either abandons them, making them your property forever, or wants to keep his son in which case they are all your property forever.

Leviticus 25:44 tells you how you can enslave non-Hebrews forever and buy and sell them as property, and that they get passed down to your kids.

People born to slaves had no way out of slavery, at all. Exodus 21 above.

Exodus 21:20-27 talks about beating slaves, as long as you don't poke out an eye, or knock out a tooth, or kill them quickly as a result.

1 Timothy, Collossians and Ephesians all talk about slaves, but doesn't say that you can't have slaves.  Note that those are new testament books.

Yes, Deuteronomy 24:7 does say that, but "one of his brothers of the people of Israel" means another Hebrew.  Non-Hebrews are fair game.  Leviticus 25:44 tells you to enslave the heathens around you.

Need me to write out all those verses?  I have them bookmarked in muh bible.  Surprised that I have a bible?

[kravarnik]

Exodus 21  The whole thing is laws about slaves.  It never says that you shouldn't have slaves.

Exodus 21:7
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do.  But if she displeases her master, who had designated her for himself, he shall let her be redeemed."

This is a Hebrew selling his daughter.  That daughter is a sex slave forever, or until the man decides that he doesn't want her anymore.

21:2-6
"When you purchase a Hebrew slave, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he shall leave as a free person without any payment.  If he comes into service alone, he shall leave alone; if he comes with a wife, his wife shall leave with him.  But if his master gives him a wife and she bears his sons or daughters, the woman and her children belong to the master and the man shall leave alone.  If, however, the slave declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children; I will not leave as a free person,' his master shall bring him to God and there, at the door or doorpost, he shall pierce his ear with an awl, thus keeping him as his slave forever.

Hebrew slaves have to be let go after six years, unless you trick them and give him a wife and kids.  Then he either abandons them, making them your property forever, or wants to keep his son in which case they are all your property forever.

Leviticus 25:44 tells you how you can enslave non-Hebrews forever and buy and sell them as property, and that they get passed down to your kids.

People born to slaves had no way out of slavery, at all. Exodus 21 above.

Exodus 21:20-27 talks about beating slaves, as long as you don't poke out an eye, or knock out a tooth, or kill them quickly as a result.

1 Timothy, Collossians and Ephesians all talk about slaves, but doesn't say that you can't have slaves.  Note that those are new testament books.

Yes, Deuteronomy 24:7 does say that, but "one of his brothers of the people of Israel" means another Hebrew.  Non-Hebrews are fair game.  Leviticus 25:44 tells you to enslave the heathens around you.

Need me to write out all those verses?  I have them bookmarked in muh bible.  Surprised that I have a bible?

Do you even read the things you quote?

Exodus 21:7 says that they shouldn't go free as males do, but doesn't say they should stay slaves forever.

Exodus 21:2-6 says that the slave should be kept forever, if the slave says "'I love my master and my wife and children; I will not leave as a free person,'" that means when the slave himself wants to stay as such.

Leviticus 25:44 says ""'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." once again I don't see where it s ays "forever," or as you seem to imply(that Biblical regulations of slavery are the same as Colonial slavery, or African slavery) against their will.

Exodus 21 consists of various regulations on slavery and some additional laws(not concerning slavery). I don't see anything remotely hinting at people staying slaves staying as such forever. Actually, it consists of terms for release.

Exodus 21:20-27 speaks about IF SOMEONE STRIKE HIS SERVANT, and the servant doesn't die, or suffer serious injury, then the owner isn't to be sued. However, it doesn't promote the beating of slaves. Seriously, it doesn't say "well, beat your slaves, but to some degree." It even says, in 21:26-7 "When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth." Like, do you even read these verses?


Once again, not saying "you shouldn't have slaves," doesn't mean "go and have slaves." There's no explicit commandment to obligate people to have slaves. There's no explicit commandment for people to not have slaves either. But one shouldn't, thus, equate that the Bible promotes that. That's why there are the words "promotion" and "regulation" and the two mean different things - the BIble doesn't say YOU SHOULD HAVE SLAVES(=promotion) but THAT'S HOW YOU SHOULD TREAT SLAVES IF YOU HAVE ANY(=regulation).

You may have a Bible, but you surely don't read it. Or if you do, you're doing an awful job, seemingly skipping reading the verses you cite. Half of them speak against the very points you cite them for - where you say that X has verses that say one may have slaves forever, openly says if you damage a slave, you ought to let him free ; or you should let the slave free after Y years.

[Atheist in Louisiana]

The mental contortions that you're going through are immensely amusing.

Endorsing slavery is allowing and promoting slavery.  The bible does all of that.  It doesn't have to say "Thou shalt own slaves, for I am your GOD!" in order for it to endorse slavery.  Telling people where to get slaves, who they can enslave, and how to do it, and telling slaves to obey their masters even when they are cruel is an endorsement of slavery.

Do you tell your kids not to do drugs, or do you tell them how to do it, where to get them, when to do drugs, and how to do not get caught by the cops when you are doing drugs?  If you don't tell them to not do drugs, but do those other things, then you are endorsing drug use to your children.

[Thresh]

This article is an excellent one for understanding slavery in the Bible.

Slavery in the Bible
https://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/slavery-in-the-bible-25/

[Thresh]

The mental contortions that you're going through are immensely amusing.

Empty rhetoric.

Endorsing slavery is allowing and promoting slavery.  The bible does all of that. Telling people where to get slaves, who they can enslave, and how to do it, and telling slaves to obey their masters even when they are cruel is an endorsement of slavery.

The problem is your narrow view of slavery. When you hear the word slavery, you are thinking of the chattel slavery of the American, antebellum south. But when the Old Testament outlines the laws for slavery, it is speaking of a different type of slavery: indentured servitude. You should be getting this picture in your mind:



This is quite embarrassing, considering that Kravarnik has already mentioned this a few times:

"So the Biblical notion of slave, or servant, isn't exactly the same as the modern rendition of the word "slave.""

"The slavery in the Bible is different to that of other nations at the time, or to that of modern Colonial Slavery - in Africa."

"So, I believe the general picture is that slavery, as Colonial Slavery, is shunned upon..."

Also, the New Testament clearly indicates that we are to try and become free if we are slaves (1 Corinthians 7:21 "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that."). That doesn't seem to be "promoting" slavery, but the very opposite. The Bible discourages slavery.

Do you tell your kids not to do drugs, or do you tell them how to do it, where to get them, when to do drugs, and how to do not get caught by the cops when you are doing drugs?  If you don't tell them to not do drugs, but do those other things, then you are endorsing drug use to your children.

Just like with the word "slavery," some drugs are ok. For example, I would rather my kids not be dependent on caffeine, but that doesn't mean I'm going vote for laws that prohibit the use of caffeine.

Slavery was a way to pay off debts in the ANE. There was no such thing as "credit" back in those days, lol. Would you rather people go to prison than become servants because they owe money?

At the end we find that your reservations regarding slavery are based on a superficial understanding of slavery which stem from your slight familiarity with American slavery and your confusion of what was actually taking place in the Old Testament.

[Atheist in Louisiana]

The mental contortions that you're going through are immensely amusing.

Empty rhetoric.

Endorsing slavery is allowing and promoting slavery.  The bible does all of that. Telling people where to get slaves, who they can enslave, and how to do it, and telling slaves to obey their masters even when they are cruel is an endorsement of slavery.

The problem is your narrow view of slavery. When you hear the word slavery, you are thinking of the chattel slavery of the American, antebellum south. But when the Old Testament outlines the laws for slavery, it is speaking of a different type of slavery: indentured servitude. You should be getting this picture in your mind:

No, the bible isn't talking about indentured servitude.  It's talking about owning another human as your property who can be handed down to your children and for the most part, have no means of escape.  Go re-read the actual bible instead of an apologetics website.

This is quite embarrassing, considering that Kravarnik has already mentioned this a few times:

"So the Biblical notion of slave, or servant, isn't exactly the same as the modern rendition of the word "slave.""

"The slavery in the Bible is different to that of other nations at the time, or to that of modern Colonial Slavery - in Africa."

"So, I believe the general picture is that slavery, as Colonial Slavery, is shunned upon..."

Also, the New Testament clearly indicates that we are to try and become free if we are slaves (1 Corinthians 7:21 "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that."). That doesn't seem to be "promoting" slavery, but the very opposite. The Bible discourages slavery.

The bible does tell "God's chosen people" that they should get out of slavery, but it doesn't say anything to them about not owning slaves.  You're conflating two different groups.

Do you tell your kids not to do drugs, or do you tell them how to do it, where to get them, when to do drugs, and how to do not get caught by the cops when you are doing drugs?  If you don't tell them to not do drugs, but do those other things, then you are endorsing drug use to your children.

Just like with the word "slavery," some drugs are ok. For example, I would rather my kids not be dependent on caffeine, but that doesn't mean I'm going vote for laws that prohibit the use of caffeine.

Slavery was a way to pay off debts in the ANE. There was no such thing as "credit" back in those days, lol. Would you rather people go to prison than become servants because they owe money?

At the end we find that your reservations regarding slavery are based on a superficial understanding of slavery which stem from your slight familiarity with American slavery and your confusion of what was actually taking place in the Old Testament.

I'm not the one confused about the slavery that took place in the bronze age.

*Edited because one misplaced "/" can mess up quotes pretty quick.

[Thresh]

No, the bible isn't talking about indentured servitude.  It's talking about owning another human as your property who can be handed down to your children and for the most part, have no means of escape.  Go re-read the actual bible instead of an apologetics website.

Lol what? If you must not clicky on the linky which explains, with citations, what I am saying, then I guess I can paste it here for you. I believe this will largely be a waste of my time as it was for Kravarnik, but here you go.

PS: It might help if you actually try to find out what the Bible says by either reading it or consulting with people who are studying this issue in depth (i.e. those dreadful apologetics websites that you shy away from.) If you don't, you haven't honestly weighed these issues correctly or fully and are just reciting anti-theist dogma at this point.

RE: "have no means of escape."

Deuteronomy 23:15-16 "You must not return an escaped slave to his master when he has run away to you. Indeed, he may live among you in any place he chooses, in whichever of your villages he prefers; you must not oppress him."

Again, you could leave anytime you wanted. A runaway slave was free to live wherever they chose; not only was it illegal to return them to their master, it was also forbidden to oppress them in any way. What Bible are you reading?

Exodus 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing."

Ever been in the military? You serve for at least 4 years and then you can go free. They are slaves to the government, of a sort. But nothing like the chattel slavery you suggest.

It's talking about owning another human as your property who can be handed down to your children and for the most part...

I believe the verse you are talking about, since you are not citing it, is Leviticus 25: 46-47 "You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever [hebrew word: 'olam'.] You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

So this only applies to the foreign slaves that were purchased. The foreign slaves didn't have the benefit of the year of Jubilee or the seven year limit.

-------

There is discussion about the word 'olam' meaning perpetual.

There is dispute as to the meaning of "eternal" as to a long time or real unending eternity.

This subject particularly heats up in regard to the duration of hell.

Strong's definition of olam

    properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always

Brown-Driver-Briggs - olam

   1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world a. ancient time, long time (of past) b. (of future)
   2. for ever, always
   3. continuous existence, perpetual
   4. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Thayer's Greek Lexicon - aion

   1. age (Latinaevum, which is aion with the Aeolic digamma), a human lifetime (in Homer, Herodotus, Pindar, Tragic poets), life itself (Homer Iliad 5, 685).

   2. an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. With this signification the Hebrew and rabbinical idea of the word עולָם (of which in the Sept. aion is the equivalent) combines in the Biblical and ecclesiastical writings.

--------

TL;DR: Regardless, slaves could go free anytime they wanted and they were protected from harm by the law. This notion that it was anything like the horrible chattel slavery you have in you mind, is again, dead wrong. You need to make a case with evidence instead of assertions.

[Thresh]

The bible does tell "God's chosen people" that they should get out of slavery, but it doesn't say anything to them about not owning slaves.  You're conflating two different groups.

God's chosen people, lol where? In the New Testament, there is no chosen people, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Citation not need because it is so basic.) The NT wants everyone to be Christians, and it says to try and become free when you come to serve Christ.

It doesn't say, stay a slave if you are not a Christian, lol. Arguments from silence don't work.

I'm not the one confused about the slavery that took place in the bronze age.

Empty rhetoric. Besides, slavery in the Bronze Age, in general, was very different from the much more humanitarian laws of the ancient Hebrews.

 Looks like all the evidence is on the Christian side, eh? Next time I won't cite your verses for you.

[jayceeii]

I have seen verses that indicate the Bible is positive on slavery and others that are negative. The thing is what is the view of this by more experienced Christians? Any people who have read the Bible thoroughly who can give me an understanding of how the Bible views this topic?

This is only one of the myriad bits of evidence from the Bible, that if God is behind it He did not intend to guide men by it. We also don’t know if God was in favor of free healthcare, or against war, although these seem to be like obvious routes in case anyone wanted to try harder to love his neighbor as Himself. I’ve seen many Christians argue rhetorically that God might be deceitful, always concluding without sufficient grounds that He could never be that way. The evidence from the Bible says otherwise, this is a weak revelation at best. Jesus didn’t even try to establish Christianity as the only religion.

You may argue that Jesus said not to follow false guides, but my point is no intellectual proofs are presented. It is left up to the reader to decide who is a false guide, and you end up with fingers pointing every direction, including between the Christian sects. The Lord put forth no guidelines whatsoever, as He would have done were it intended to be a strong revelation. If God has deceived man, man is not wise enough to notice this was done, sitting smugly content with a little ancient poetry while fierce controversies remain. If God has deceived man too, it is because men could not be led by straight paths. Surely God would establish divine and holy order on His globe, were there a chance of doing so.

[Triple Scooby]

"By their fruits you shall know them..."

"You are the rock upon which my church will be built...and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

"If you will abide in my gospel, then you will truly be my disciple, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

[jayceeii]

"By their fruits you shall know them..."

"You are the rock upon which my church will be built...and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

"If you will abide in my gospel, then you will truly be my disciple, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

There is no man giving good fruits today, because there is no place a person of goodwill can go and be safe. If Peter is the rock, I presume he has further duties he has yet to take up. Jesus did not give sufficient guidance for salvation, nor do men want to hear about it.