The foreknowledge of god is contradictory with the free will?

[dorel]

"My question is whether God can tell us what we will do if He knows we will do something contrary to whatever He tells us. Those are two different questions. To me the second case seems logically impossible."
your approach is wrong because;
-god can know that we will TRY to do something against whatever HE tells us.
-god also know that we cannot do contrary to his prediction.
your premises are:
1)god foreknows the future
2) god can not be wrong
so, follows from the premises that we can try to do otherwise, but we cannot do otherwise
what not follows is that god can't tell us our future actions.
actually I give you an example when Peter tells Jesus "I WILL NOT DENY YOU"
Jesus as god knows that  what Peter says is a stupidity, he can try it, but never will get it.

[toknowthetruth]

-god can know that we will TRY to do something against whatever HE tells us.

If you mean God can know if we won't willingly want to do what He knows we will do even in the case that He tells us that we will do it I would agree with you.

-god also know that we cannot do contrary to his prediction.

I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but I don't see that this is true at all. He knows that we will not do contrary to His foreknowledge, but it's not necessarily true that He knows that we cannot do contrary. On Molinism it would be that He knows that we could do contrary but from His foreknowledge He knows that we won't.

your premises are:
1)god foreknows the future
2) god can not be wrong
so, follows from the premises that we can try to do otherwise, but we cannot do otherwise

Only if you assume that God can tell us what we are going to do even when He knows we will do contrary to what He tells us. But this is what I'm arguing is logically impossible. If it is, then, you cannot assert that we cannot do otherwise based on the argument you put forth in this regard.

[dorel]

"If you mean God can know if we won't willingly want to do what He knows we will do even in the case that He tells us that we will do it I would agree with you."
concrete examples (are better)
-Jesus if knows the future, knows that Peter will say(I will not deny you)/try to not deny him.
"god also know that we cannot do contrary to his prediction.
I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but I don't see that this is true at all. He knows that we will not do contrary to His foreknowledge, but it's not necessarily true that He knows that we cannot do contrary."
-you cannot do the contrary of God's prediction because if you really do it God prediction was wrong, and God cannot be wrong.

"Only if you assume That God can tell us what we are going to do Even When He knows we will do what He tells Contrary to us."
-this phrase is totally incorrect
God knows, and we  also know that we will not be able to do the opposite of what predicts.
-Jesus Knows that Peter will try not deny him, he also knows that it is impossible for Peter to not deny him.

[toknowthetruth]

-you cannot do the contrary of God's prediction because if you really do it God prediction was wrong, and God cannot be wrong.

God's foreknowledge won't be wrong, but not because we can't do otherwise. His foreknowledge is about what we will do, not what we can or cannot do. His foreknowledge doesn't determine our choices, our choices determine His foreknowledge.

"Only if you assume That God can tell us what we are going to do Even When He knows we will do what He tells Contrary to us."
-this phrase is totally incorrect

I agree with you. You somewhat mixed up what I posted. Here it is again.

"Only if you assume that God can tell us what we are going to do even when He knows we will do contrary to what He tells us. But this is what I'm arguing is logically impossible."

I'm not real clear on whether you disagree with me that for God to do so is logically impossible? This would be assuming we have free will and that God has foreknowledge of our choices, which is compatible with Molinism.

[dorel]

"Only if you assume that God can tell us what we are going to do even when He knows we will do contrary to what He tells us. But this is what I'm arguing is logically impossible."
-this phrase is totally incorrect
What God knows, and we  also know is that we will not be able to do the opposite of what predicts.
-Jesus Knows that Peter will try not to deny him, he also knows that it is impossible for Peter to not deny him.

"God's foreknowledge won't be wrong, but not because we can't do otherwise. His foreknowledge is about what we will do, not what we can or cannot do. His foreknowledge doesn't determine our choices, our choices determine His foreknowledge."
-so you ar agree that He cannot be wrong?
-and if you accept that he cannot be wrong, you also are agree that we cannot do otherwise.
God foreknows that you will do X
God foreknows that even if he tells you that you will do X, you will do X.
So is not that is logically impossible that god tells us that we will do X, because He always will know what we will do.
If we will do X, God will foreknows that we will do X, and he will tell us that we will do X
If we will do NOT X, God will foreknows that we will do NOT X, and he will tell us that we will do not X
What is imposible is that we do NOT X, if god tell us that we will do X.

[toknowthetruth]

he also knows that it is impossible for Peter to not deny him.

I don't think with Molinism, the concern is with possibility. The concerned is with whether or not he could have chosen differently. Again, knowing what Peter's choice is doesn't mean that he didn't have the power to chose differently. Jesus simply knows that he won't. That has nothing to say about whether he could or couldn't have done differently.

"God's foreknowledge won't be wrong, but not because we can't do otherwise. His foreknowledge is about what we will do, not what we can or cannot do. His foreknowledge doesn't determine our choices, our choices determine His foreknowledge."
-so you ar agree that He cannot be wrong?

Yes.

-and if you accept that he cannot be wrong, you also are agree that we cannot do otherwise.

Again, the question isn't whether we cannot, but whether we could not. Our choices determine God's foreknowledge so that His foreknowledge is about what choice we will actually make. But there's nothing to compel us to reason that we couldn't do otherwise, only that we won't do otherwise.

God foreknows that you will do X

Yes

God foreknows that even if he tells you that you will do X, you will do X.

If He can tell us, yes.

So is not that is logically impossible that god tells us that we will do X, because He always will know what we will do.

The point I'm making that I'm not sure you are understanding is, as long as it's not logically impossible for Him to tell us, yes, He can tell us. 

If we will do X, God will foreknows that we will do X, and he will tell us that we will do X

Hypothetically He can tell us, but only as long as it's not logically impossible for Him to tell us.

If we will do NOT X, God will foreknows that we will do NOT X, and he will tell us that we will do not X

Again, same answer as above.

What is imposible is that we do NOT X, if god tell us that we will do X.

Same answer.

If I'm not mistaken, your whole argument hinges on the argument that if God can and does tell us what we are going to do and we have free will, then circumstances permitting, we would be able to do something contrary to what God told us. And if we did, that would mean God was wrong and that would be a contradiction. However, as I've pointed out, as far as I can tell it would be logically impossible for God to tell us what we are going to do in such a situation that would permit us to act contrary to His foreknowledge. I'm not sure you have addressed this problem I'm raising about your argument. Or maybe I missed something?

[dorel]

 "And if we did, that would mean God was wrong and that would be a contradiction. However, as I've pointed out, as far as I can tell it would be logically impossible for God to tell us what we are going to do in such a situation that would permit us to act contrary to His foreknowledge."
-the fact of the matter is that do not exist even that possibility of "IF WE DID OTHERWISE", if you accept that god have middle knowledge
you accept that god has middle knowledge?
if yes, you accept that if god tells you that you will do X, you will do X..
Now, my argument is that Peter as a thinking being, can think about Jesus prediction, and can ask himself:
- a God told me that I will deny him.
-can I do otherwise?
the answer is NO, if we accept that god has middle knowledge and foreknows my actions.
So:
 It can not be that you say that God has middle knowledge, and arguing that it would be logically impossible to tell us our future actions knowing that we would do the opposite
If what we would do is the opposite, God had knowledge that we would do the opposite, and this is what he would say we will do.

[toknowthetruth]

"And if we did, that would mean God was wrong and that would be a contradiction. However, as I've pointed out, as far as I can tell it would be logically impossible for God to tell us what we are going to do in such a situation that would permit us to act contrary to His foreknowledge."
-the fact of the matter is that do not exist even that possibility of "IF WE DID OTHERWISE", if you accept that god have middle knowledge
you accept that god has middle knowledge?
if yes, you accept that if god tells you that you will do X, you will do X..
Now, my argument is that Peter as a thinking being, can think about Jesus prediction, and can ask himself:
- a God told me that I will deny him.
-can I do otherwise?
the answer is NO, if we accept that god has middle knowledge and foreknows my actions.
So:
 It can not be that you say that God has middle knowledge, and arguing that it would be logically impossible to tell us our future actions knowing that we would do the opposite
If what we would do is the opposite, God had knowledge that we would do the opposite, and this is what he would say we will do.

For the most part I agree with what you are saying. I think the point you're missing is whether or not he could have done differently. If we look through the lens of middle knowledge we can see that yes, he could have. God's middle knowledge is based on what God knows Peter will do based on what He knows Peter will choose to do in that situation.

What you're arguing says nothing about what Peter could or couldn't do, only that what God know he will do will come to pass. The way I see it, you cannot deduce that Peter has no choice based upon you're argument. There's nothing in there that shows either yeah or nah. The only thing that you can deduce is that God knows what Peter will do and therefore that's what happens. I think you're trying to deduce conclusions from what you are arguing for which there's really no basis.

[dorel]

Now that we can forget the "logically impossible" argument let see my proposal.
From the middle knowledge we deduce that god create a world in which Peter will freely do action X.
Agree?

What the middle knowledge do not provide is an explanation for my proposal:
Peter can ask himself, after Jesus prediction:
-I'm free to not do what Jesus predicted?
-can you answer?

[Atheist in Louisiana]

Middle knowledge is nothing more than an obfuscation of foreknowledge.  It doesn't actually change anything.  For all practical purposes (like this one), middle knowledge and foreknowledge are the same.

[toknowthetruth]

Now that we can forget the "logically impossible" argument let see my proposal.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Does that mean you don't disagree with me in what I was saying about the logical impossibility of what you were suggesting?

From the middle knowledge we deduce that god create a world in which Peter will freely do action X.
Agree?

Yes.

What the middle knowledge do not provide is an explanation for my proposal:
Peter can ask himself, after Jesus prediction:
-I'm free to not do what Jesus predicted?
-can you answer?

Of course. Peter is free to do whatever he chooses to do. Jesus is not telling him what is possible for him to do, but what he would do. What Jesus predicted is what His foreknowledge showed Him would happen. It has nothing to say about Peter's being free or not. Peter is free to act according to what he decides to do, circumstances permitting, whatever the case may be.

Moreover, in this case Jesus was able to tell Peter what he would do because in His foreknowledge He knew that, even though Peter would desire to do differently, he wouldn't have the courage to do so. So again, he could have done differently, but he didn't. Not because he wasn't free to, but in this case, because of his lack of courage to do so.

[dorel]

"I'm not sure what you mean here. Does that mean you don't disagree with me in what I was saying about the logical impossibility of what you were suggesting?"
NO
I think that we are agree that if you accept that god has middle knowledge your argument is invalid.
Is not possible that god has middle knowledge and tells you that you will do X, and you will do not X.

So this frase of yours ""Only if you assume that God can tell us what we are going to do even when He knows we will do contrary to what He tells us " is totally wrong.
 You accept that god has middle knowledge.
So:
1) god knows what you will do
2) god tells you what you will do
3) you necessarily will do what god tells you that you will do, because god cannot be wrong.
"Moreover, in this case Jesus was able to tell Peter what he would do because in His foreknowledge He knew that, even though Peter would desire to do differently, he wouldn't have the courage to do so. So again, he could have done differently, but he didn't. Not because he wasn't free to, but in this case, because of his lack of courage to do so."
OK, i conceive you that Jesus knew that Peter will not have enough courage to not deny him.
let see Peter thoughts after the prediction of a god, a second after
- A god predicted to me that i will deny him
-So, since this god cannot be wrong i'm not free to not deny him, no matter how coward or brave I am.
it is just like this:
G;-what do you want to eat sunday?
P:-pizza
G:-ok, you will eat pizza
P:-G can I eat macaroni instead of pizza?
G:- NO, because I said that "ok you will eat pizza" and I cannot be wrong.

[toknowthetruth]

"I'm not sure what you mean here. Does that mean you don't disagree with me in what I was saying about the logical impossibility of what you were suggesting?"
NO
I think that we are agree that if you accept that god has middle knowledge your argument is invalid.
Is not possible that god has middle knowledge and tells you that you will do X, and you will do not X.

Oh, I'm a little confused. What does your statement above have to do with logical impossibility. My assertion is that to ask God to tell you what you are going to do when He knows you will do contrary to whatever He tells you is logically impossible. It would be similar to asking Him to tell you what the distance is of a line that continues to infinity.
You say you disagree, but it's still not clear to me why? So far I haven't been aware of you directly addressing this issue. If you have please point it out to me. If not, could you please state your directly related reasons for disagreeing?

So this frase of yours ""Only if you assume that God can tell us what we are going to do even when He knows we will do contrary to what He tells us " is totally wrong.
 You accept that god has middle knowledge.
So:
1) god knows what you will do
2) god tells you what you will do
3) you necessarily will do what god tells you that you will do, because god cannot be wrong.

I agree with this, but it says nothing about logical impossibility, nor whether or not we have free will. If I understand Molinism correctly, the action you will take will necessarily be what God knows in His foreknowledge you will freely choose to do. So He's not wrong, not because He's controlling your decision, but because He knows what you will choose to do.

 
"Moreover, in this case Jesus was able to tell Peter what he would do because in His foreknowledge He knew that, even though Peter would desire to do differently, he wouldn't have the courage to do so. So again, he could have done differently, but he didn't. Not because he wasn't free to, but in this case, because of his lack of courage to do so."

OK, i conceive you that Jesus knew that Peter will not have enough courage to not deny him.
let see Peter thoughts after the prediction of a god, a second after
- A god predicted to me that i will deny him
-So, since this god cannot be wrong i'm not free to not deny him, no matter how coward or brave I am.
it is just like this:
G;-what do you want to eat sunday?
P:-pizza
G:-ok, you will eat pizza
P:-G can I eat macaroni instead of pizza?
G:- NO, because I said that "ok you will eat pizza" and I cannot be wrong.

I don't follow your reasoning here. For one thing God doesn't have to ask you what you want eat on Sunday. He already knows. Secondly, He would also know that you are going to change your mind, so He won't make the statement that you will eat pizza. He'll simply say, OK, if you want to eat pizza go ahead. You haven't asked Him here to tell you what you will eat. You only have Him asking you what you want to eat. So I would say you'll need to rephrase the above in order for it to make sense.

[dorel]

"My assertion is that to ask God to tell you what you are going to do when He knows You will do contrary to whatever He tells you is logically impossible."

You don't see that this is impossible if you accept that god have middle knowledge.
If you can do the contrary of what god predicted, is that god does not have middle knowledge.
What he told you is not based on his middle knowledge, is just a guess if you can do otherwise.
Instead if god has middle knowledge he will predict you what you will actually do.
And you will do the predicted action.
So, in a world created by god, in which in a situation S, a person P will do action A, the logically impossible will be to do NOT A.
In no way will be impossible to say you that you will do action A.

[kravarnik]

"My assertion is that to ask God to tell you what you are going to do when He knows You will do contrary to whatever He tells you is logically impossible."

You don't see that this is impossible if you accept that god have middle knowledge.
If you can do the contrary of what god predicted, is that god does not have middle knowledge.
What he told you is not based on his middle knowledge, is just a guess if you can do otherwise.
Instead if god has middle knowledge he will predict you what you will actually do.
And you will do the predicted action.
So, in a world created by god, in which in a situation S, a person P will do action A, the logically impossible will be to do NOT A.
In no way will be impossible to say you that you will do action A.

You're proposing an inherent contradiction here. If God is your creator and knows your essential will, and He created you and the environment you're in to begin with, then your decisions are secondary to God's act of creation and instance of prior foreknowledge.


Thus, He wouldn't fail to know the actual thing you'd do, before you do it. What you're proposing there, as thought experiment, is logical contradiction, given the above terms.



It's akin to saying "if God knows atoms in existence would structure in different forms and shapes, and say stars are spherical, what would happen if in reality, stars were square?" Then, it's either logically impossible for such a world to exist, where God creates a universe and foreknows that stars will be spherical, but they are square ; or God's foreknowledge then would be that stars will be square.

In other words, your thought experiment doesn't show that free will doesn't exist with foreknowledge, or can't exist with foreknowledge, but that you haven't grasped what foreknowledge is. It would be impossible for P, in S to do NOT A, because P's essential nature(in other words - P is that kind of person, who wouldn't do NOT A), which God foreknows, and not because God pre-determined P and P has no free-will.