Time and the Trinity

[Blashack]

The way I understand God's relation to Jesus was that God chose to permeate the time-eternity barrier in order to bring salvation to humanity. Jesus is God incarnate, but limited to the same space-time continuum as are we, but does that not contradict the Trinity's eternity? Jesus didn't exist as part of the Trinity until a fixed point in time.

Probably a pretty rudimentary question from a new Christian.

[lapwing]

Jesus existed before he was incarnated at Bethlehem. He is described as the alpha and omega, beginning and end. So there is no time when Jesus never existed as there are no letters before alpha or after omega in the Greek alphabet.

Welcome to the forum Blashack.

[Vimbiso]

The way I understand God's relation to Jesus was that God chose to permeate the time-eternity barrier in order to bring salvation to humanity. Jesus is God incarnate, but limited to the same space-time continuum as are we, but does that not contradict the Trinity's eternity? Jesus didn't exist as part of the Trinity until a fixed point in time.

Probably a pretty rudimentary question from a new Christian.

@Blashack Jesus does not exist separately from the trinity in a space-time continuum with the Father and the Holy Spirit existing outside time. When we say God is timeless, we mean that God is not constrained by the limits of time i.e. He does not need time to exist whereas finite creatures such as ourselves need time to exist since we must begin to exist. God's eternity simply means God exists necessarily i.e. He did not begin to exist and He will not cease to exist.

Prior to the beginning of the universe, God existed without time but after the creation of the universe, He exists in time. Therefore God did not need to permeate any time-eternity barrier, to save man, because He already exists in time. God existing in time does not mean He ceases to be eternal: it just means He is able to interact with His creation.

[Aaron Massey]

Jesus existed before he was incarnated at Bethlehem. He is described as the alpha and omega, beginning and end. So there is no time when Jesus never existed as there are no letters before alpha or after omega in the Greek alphabet.

Welcome to the forum Blashack.

Where is Jesus Described as the Alpha and the Omega?

[lapwing]

Jesus existed before he was incarnated at Bethlehem. He is described as the alpha and omega, beginning and end. So there is no time when Jesus never existed as there are no letters before alpha or after omega in the Greek alphabet.

Welcome to the forum Blashack.

Where is Jesus Described as the Alpha and the Omega?

Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

      14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

      16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star

[Aaron Massey]

Jesus existed before he was incarnated at Bethlehem. He is described as the alpha and omega, beginning and end. So there is no time when Jesus never existed as there are no letters before alpha or after omega in the Greek alphabet.

Welcome to the forum Blashack.

Where is Jesus Described as the Alpha and the Omega?

Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

      14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

      16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star

HE is Referring to GOD, if you read the Rev 22 in context.

Look at the earlier verse:
Revelation 22:9
but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Notice Jesus Angel (jesus only has one angel, where as God has many)
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Tells John not to worship him, but GOD, it is then explained as in the verse you showed that God is the alpha and Omega.

But later, Jesus is described as a Lord.
Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

You would have to show why GOD is referred too, and then the Lord Jesus is talked about separately.   Jesus may well be eternal now, he was there at the beginning, but he was not the first thing, God was.

[lapwing]

Aaron,

You have misread Rev 22. The angel is talking to John in vv 9-11. Jesus speaks in vv 12-16. It is Jesus who is "coming soon" (v12) and Jesus tells us explicitly he is speaking in v16. In between we have the statement: I am the Alpha and the Omega, that is "Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega".

The word for "Lord" in "Lord Jesus" is the same word used in the Septuagint for YHWH: it doesn't mean someone who lives in a stately home.

[Aaron Massey]

Aaron,

You have misread Rev 22. The angel is talking to John in vv 9-11. Jesus speaks in vv 12-16. It is Jesus who is "coming soon" (v12) and Jesus tells us explicitly he is speaking in v16. In between we have the statement: I am the Alpha and the Omega, that is "Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega".

The word for "Lord" in "Lord Jesus" is the same word used in the Septuagint for YHWH: it doesn't mean someone who lives in a stately home.

Well when the angel tells John not to worship him in 22:9, he tells him "Theos"  Meaning God. Only Worship God essentially.    (jesus is reffered to as Kyrie)

and the Angel keeps talking (v10 then he instructed me..) and explains all about God and no mention of Jesus by the angel, the angel explains how God is the Alpha and omega in v13 (still no mention of JEsus)
And finally when we get to v16,  Jesus talks about himself then. 
And finally you get to 22:19, where Jesus talks about God punishing those who add or remove anything from the revelation.   So why dosnt Jesus say he will punish those who add or remove from the revelation?  Instead of saying God will?

You have no scriptural support to show Jesus is the alpha and omega.   

And like any Lord of a stately home, he has been given dominion and power over it by someone more regal.   Im not sure why you find that so diffcult, so much so to name Jesus GOD.

[lapwing]

Aaron,

You have just repeated your own opinions and refused to engage with what I said.

In Jn 1:18 Jesus is referred to us the "only begotten God" (theos) and Thomas called him "my Lord and my God". Do you think Thomas was wrong since you said "Jesus is referred to as kyrie"?

It is Jesus and not the angel who is speaking in vv 12-16.


“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give youa this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

the angel explains how God is the Alpha and omega in v13

Why does the angel say "I am the Alpha and Omega" According to you Aaron, it is the angel who says he is coming soon and it is the angel who claims to be the Alpha and the Omega. That is simply nonsense. You need to read this passage more carefully and more prayerfully, and think again.

[Aaron Massey]

Aaron,

You have just repeated your own opinions and refused to engage with what I said.

I think it is the other way around.

In Jn 1:18 Jesus is referred to us the "only begotten God" (theos) and Thomas called him "my Lord and my God". Do you think Thomas was wrong since you said "Jesus is referred to as kyrie"?

And this is what i mean, we are discussing Time and the Trinity and wether Jesus always existed in the Alpha and Omega sense and the scriptural support for that. But you have gone back to your old Trintarian favourites, Thomas and John.. 
 

It is Jesus and not the angel who is speaking in vv 12-16.


“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give youa this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

From 22:16 Jesus speaks, that is why he introduces himself "I,Jesus, have sent my angel.."   

From 22:10 it is Jesus Angel speaking to John... Here:
And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

All the way through to ...

At 22:16 Jesus speaks, explaining his Angel, who just spoke explaining God and his return and judgement from 22:10.

the angel explains how God is the Alpha and omega in v13

Why does the angel say "I am the Alpha and Omega"

He is Quoting God's words.  The angel is bringing a message to John.  Then Jesus re-affrims it in 22:16 forwards. 

According to you Aaron, it is the angel who says he is coming soon and it is the angel who claims to be the Alpha and the Omega.

You must be used to twisting scripture, so you twist my words as well. I felt i explained my view clearly enough that you would not assert notions that where not there.

That is simply nonsense. You need to read this passage more carefully and more prayerfully, and think again.

I think you need to stop reading scripture through the lense of the trintatian doctrine made up by men 1000 years ago trying to keep there Earth wind Fire Gods of Pagan days.  It might help to pray to God your father in heaven through his son Jesus christ amen.

And stop praying to JEsus himself.

[lapwing]

And this is what i mean, we are discussing Time and the Trinity and wether Jesus always existed in the Alpha and Omega sense and the scriptural support for that. But you have gone back to your old Trintarian favourites, Thomas and John

This was in response to your comment "Well when the angel tells John not to worship him in 22:9, he tells him "Theos"  Meaning God. Only Worship God essentially.    (jesus is reffered to as Kyrie)"
Here you seem to be implying that in the angel's command to "worship God" and not himself (i.e. the angel), he also meant to not worship Jesus. I was pointing out that Jesus is referred to as God (theos) as well as Lord (kyrios) in the NT. So your thesis fails. Your failure to acknowledge why I gave these two examples is another example of where you refuse to engage properly with what is said to you.

But you have gone back to your old Trintarian favourites, Thomas and John.. 

Would you prefer to cut their words out of the Bible?

From 22:10 it is Jesus Angel speaking to John

Where do you get the idea that Jesus is a mere angel?

He is Quoting God's words

Where do you find this stated in the text?

the trintatian doctrine made up by men 1000 years ago

I think you need to add a few hundred years to this figure

So as I understand it you think that in Rev 22 it is the angel who is speaking in verses 10-15. The angel is quoting God in verses 12-15, even though there is no indication of this (e.g. "God says"). Jesus only speaks in verse 16 according to you.

The conventional view is that the angel says verses 10,11 and Jesus says verses 12,13 and 16.


And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11“Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”


Note that in Rev 3:11 the phrase "I am coming soon" is clearly ascribed to Jesus and must refer to Jesus in 22:12.

‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God

So your thesis involves the angel quoting Jesus in verse 12 and God in verse 13, even though there is no indication in the text of any part of your thesis!