RCS

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While it is not clear whether Carroll demonstrated that “God did not exist” (although, I think you could argue he demonstrated that there can be a universe where a God does not exist), he did destroy any utility for the Kalam Cosmological Argument (hereafter, “KCA.”)

KCA is a philosophical argument that Craig has championed now for decades.  While there are numerous twists and turns within it involving infinities and other issues, the argument in its basic form can be stated in three tight premises:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
2. The universe began to exist; and
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

While Carroll argued I think successfully that no one (especially Craig) knows whether premise two is correct, his real point - and the point that literally puts a steak in the hart of KCA - is that premise one is simply a meaningless statement in modern scientific cosmology.

In his post debate blog on this point he writes the following:

“My attitude toward the above two premises is that (2) is completely uncertain, while the “obvious” one (1) is flat-out false. Or not even false, as I put it, because the notion of a “cause” isn’t part of an appropriate vocabulary to use for discussing fundamental physics. Rather, modern physical models take the form of unbreakable patterns — laws of Nature — that persist without any external causes. The Aristotelian analysis of causes is outdated when it comes to modern fundamental physics; what matters is whether you can find a formal mathematical model that accounts for the data. . .”  (See http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/02/24/post-debate-reflections/, March 23, 2014.)

This is why KCA is dead; it is an anachronism.  It is like making a philosophical argument about why influenza is contagious.  No one is doing that because no one thinks about influenza in those terms.  The KCA as pointed out by Carroll is an Aristotelian argument in a discipline that no longer has need for such arguments.

I am an agnostic (maybe even leaning towards being a deist of some type), and I am honestly open minded about the existence of God.  But it became painfully clear in the Carroll/Craig debate that KCA is of no use to discover such an existence.  Its unfortunate, but it appears that in 50 years Craig’s papers and debates on this issue will be worth nothing more than as an amusing footnote about quaint little philosophers and their crazy ideas from the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

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jf1354

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I don't know if I'd put it quite as strong as you have here but there were a lot of points in this debate where I think Carroll showed he had a better grasp of the science and many points I'm eager to hear a response from Craig on. However, Carroll's grasp of the philosophical implications of the latest scientific discoveries (particular his strawman view of what a world with a God would look like) did not seem up to par with Craig's philosophy to me.

For one, I continue to hear many atheists say that quantum physics somehow disproves Aristotelian metaphysics but I never quite hear an explanation how or even a good understanding of Aristotelian metaphysics for that matter. They seem to confuse Aristotle's views on physics (like his geocentrism) with his metaphysical framework for observing the world.

For example, in the sense that Craig uses the KCA he argues from the observation that everything that begins to exist has a cause and argues that the universe must by necessity have a cause since it began to exist. Carroll didn't understand what Craig meant by the use of the word "cause". Craig isn't talking about material causes but efficient causes or that which causes change and motion to start or stop. Even the virtual particles that pop in and out of existence from the quantum vacuum can still be said to have an efficient cause even if they lack a material one. Carroll would argue it's these "unbreakable patterns — laws of Nature — that persist without any external causes" that are the efficient causes of the universe and the way physics operates. Craig argues that ultimately there must be something behind these laws- God. Neither are abandoning causation but only one realizes it.

For two, if you don't like the word "cause" there are multiple other ways of phrasing the point of the KCA into other Cosmological Arguments. Leibniz focused his on the universe requiring an explanation ( a point that holds even if the universe is eternal) while Aristotle argues that change can't occur without something that is pure actuality setting everything into motion (another argument which also was meant to work with an eternal universe). The point that these philosophers raise is that the nature of the universe presupposes something beyond it. Modern physicists are trying to offer explanations of the universe without this ultimate explanation. This is fine until you ask the question, "why does this arbitrary universe exist rather than the nothingness from which it came?"

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RCS

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I don't know if I'd put it quite as strong as you have here but there were a lot of points in this debate where I think Carroll showed he had a better grasp of the science and many points I'm eager to hear a response from Craig on. However, Carroll's grasp of the philosophical implications of the latest scientific discoveries (particular his strawman view of what a world with a God would look like) did not seem up to par with Craig's philosophy to me.

For one, I continue to hear many atheists say that quantum physics somehow disproves Aristotelian metaphysics but I never quite hear an explanation how or even a good understanding of Aristotelian metaphysics for that matter. They seem to confuse Aristotle's views on physics (like his geocentrism) with his metaphysical framework for observing the world.

For example, in the sense that Craig uses the KCA he argues from the observation that everything that begins to exist has a cause and argues that the universe must by necessity have a cause since it began to exist. Carroll didn't understand what Craig meant by the use of the word "cause". Craig isn't talking about material causes but efficient causes or that which causes change and motion to start or stop. Even the virtual particles that pop in and out of existence from the quantum vacuum can still be said to have an efficient cause even if they lack a material one. Carroll would argue it's these "unbreakable patterns — laws of Nature — that persist without any external causes" that are the efficient causes of the universe and the way physics operates. Craig argues that ultimately there must be something behind these laws- God. Neither are abandoning causation but only one realizes it.

For two, if you don't like the word "cause" there are multiple other ways of phrasing the point of the KCA into other Cosmological Arguments. Leibniz focused his on the universe requiring an explanation ( a point that holds even if the universe is eternal) while Aristotle argues that change can't occur without something that is pure actuality setting everything into motion (another argument which also was meant to work with an eternal universe). The point that these philosophers raise is that the nature of the universe presupposes something beyond it. Modern physicists are trying to offer explanations of the universe without this ultimate explanation. This is fine until you ask the question, "why does this arbitrary universe exist rather than the nothingness from which it came?"

jf1354 interesting comments; let me briefly respond.  First, I want to point out that the thrust of my comment was that KCA is dead.  Whether other philosophical arguments lack any utility would depend on what they are.  I take note that you spent little time on KCA and seem to be leaning towards arguments based on Leibniz, which may have a longer life span.

Second, the argument I believe Carroll was making was essentially that science has moved on and that Philosophy runs the very distinct risk of being viewed as proving no significant contribution to new knowledge.  All of the discoveries in cosmology are in science, not in philosophy.  People like Carroll are out in the trenches developing models and attempting to come with tests that can either prove or disprove them, and philosophers like Craig sit in their arm chairs developing musings about which version of time (i.e., A or B) might be arguably correct.

Third, your suggestion that Carroll missed some points regarding the philosophical meaning of certain terms - like "cause" - is correct.  Unfortunately, this suggests a problem with philosophy rather than Carroll.  His lack of understanding of such terms appears to be systemic within his branch of science, and is evidence of the extreme disinterest among scientists in this area of philosophical discussions regarding how the Universe began.  But is this a flaw?  It doesn't seem to be.  Again, they are the ones making all of the discoveries and not philosophy. 

For me watching the debate created a specific metaphor in my mind.  Carroll was on a train winding its way through the mountains and Craig was back at the station arguing that trains can't go up in the mountains. 

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jf1354

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KCS, thank you for giving what I had to say some thought. In response to your first point let me clarify that what I said about material and efficient causes was in defense of the KCA. I don't see how physics has disproved the Aristotelian idea of causes in the efficient sense (more on that when I get to your third point) and thus don't think the argument is dead.

I brought up Leibniz and Aristotle to point out that even if it were proven that things can come into being from nothing or that the universe was eternal the point that the argument makes can be reformulated into a different form. The point is that the nature of the universe implies something beyond it's existence for it to exist. As Aquinas aptly put it: this we call God.

This directly brings me to your second point: that science has moved on and philosophy provides no contribution to knowledge. I think Craig said it best that those who say that philosophy is of no use are the ones most likely to be fooled by it. For example, the utility of philosophy (or of science for that matter!) is itself a philosophical question in which science is of no use in answering. Entire branches of human knowledge (from ethics to art), do not depend on empirical proof to function and would need to be discarded if your point was taken seriously.

Science deals with how the material world functions but philosophy deals with the whole of human knowledge and how to interpret abstract information we experience see. That cosmological advances come from cosmology instead of philosophy in of itself does nothing to diminish the ability of philosophy to give us knowledge. Without philosophy, science would not be able to function.  For example, when scientists like Stephen Hawking or Lawrence Krauss say that the universe can come from nothing without a Creator, isn't it important to clarify what we mean by "nothing" or "Creator"? Why would they even be looking into these questions if not for their philosophical or theological significance?

On your third point, we agree that Carroll doesn't understand the word "cause" but I am confused why you think this shows philosophy to be obsolete. Maybe Carroll should actually learn what Aristotle meant by "cause" before he writes off Aristotle's definition as obsolete. Aristotle for one did not believe that philosophy was best done in the armchair but is best directed by what we experience through the senses. But then again, (to use your analogy), even a train needs somebody sitting at the desk thinking about where it's going and in what direction to lay the tracks otherwise it will most likely veer off a cliff and kill everybody.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:12:43 PM by jf1354 »

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osmosis321

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For one, I continue to hear many atheists say that quantum physics somehow disproves Aristotelian metaphysics but I never quite hear an explanation how or even a good understanding of Aristotelian metaphysics for that matter.

That is not necessary.  As Carroll rightly states, your metaphysics must follow your physics, and Craig's metaphysics is stuck to 2500 year old physics.

The point that these philosophers raise is that the nature of the universe presupposes something beyond it.

That's wrong.  There is no "before" or "outside" or "beyond" the universe.

This is fine until you ask the question, "why does this arbitrary universe exist rather than the nothingness from which it came?"

Positing god does nothing to answer that question, it merely takes one step too many down the infinite regress, and is ultimately pointless as an answer to the origin of the universe.

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jf1354

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That is not necessary.  As Carroll rightly states, your metaphysics must follow your physics, and Craig's metaphysics is stuck to 2500 year old physics.

Please then explain what scientific discovery has rendered Aristotle's notion of efficient cause obsolete leaving Craig stuck 2,500 years in the past.

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That's wrong.  There is no "before" or "outside" or "beyond" the universe

Then why is there a universe rather than nothing?

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Positing god does nothing to answer that question, it merely takes one step too many down the infinite regress, and is ultimately pointless as an answer to the origin of the universe.

How so? In the words of the KCA, God is by necessity this ultimate cause because He Himself has always existed as the universe has not. The idea is that everything that begins to exist has a cause not that everything has a cause.

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Name.emaN

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If I understand Carroll's argument correctly I don't see how the the Kalam Cosmological Argument could be dead. But I can see that it's been weakened.

 Carroll's point seems to be very simple: He says that it is possible for us to discard our traditional 'everyday'-notion of causality and to stop explaining events by explaining what caused them. We should rather just look for laws - which are expressed in sets of mathematical equations - that wholly conform to observable events. In a sense, one might say, Carroll wants to make a move from: ‘Explanation via causes‘ to 'descriptions of patterns'.

 Then, in the debate, he goes on to say, that we have "no right" (!) to demand more than such a tight description.

But he only gives dubious reasons for that claim: On the one hand he seems to say that since the humble, descriptive project "works" it's somehow unjust to ask for deeper explanations; on the other hand he seems to have a faulty understanding of what metaphysics is. It is misleading to say that metaphysics is the study "of what comes after physics". Metaphysics/first philosophy is the study of being qua being. Metaphysics must not contradict physics; but it is not the case that physics merely provides the data that then, after physics has been done, has to be dealt with in metaphysics. Metaphysics is the study of being as such and this includes more than physical stuff (for instance consciousness or ethical laws).

But everything Carroll said seems to be COMPATIBLE with the richer philosophical/intellectual project that demands causes and causal explanation instead of mere description. Why is it compatible? Because once you have seen the description you can then simply move on to explain what has been described. Nothing's stopping you. Therefore Carroll might have weakened, but not killed the KCA.

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RCS

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jf1354 let me make one additional response to one of your later comments and then I am leaving this thread (its a Monday and work calls).  Although, I will read with interest anything you write in response.  Here is what you wrote on my comment about the fact that Carroll's area of science is ignoring philosophy:

"On your third point, we agree that Carroll doesn't understand the word "cause" but I am confused why you think this shows philosophy to be obsolete. Maybe Carroll should actually learn what Aristotle meant by "cause" before he writes off Aristotle's definition as obsolete."

That fact is I can understand your frustration.  You believe philosophy has something of value to add to the debate and it is not simply getting through.  Unfortunately, this is evidence that the end is soon coming for that philosophical discipline, and it is the cruelest end of all  - death by being ignored.   

In fact, since I am much more of an empiricist than a philosopher let me make a prediction.  Its a prediction that tracks how a lot of belief systems end through being ignored, and given that this particular belief system is a component of a number of University curriculums it goes something like this: 

There are two competing views of the world, and one completely ignores the other view.  We can call the one that is doing the ignoring "View A" and the one being ignored "View B."   Add to this mix View A is wildly successful in making predictions about the world, but View B does not make similar testable predictions.    Those following View B, however, continue to publish papers and even hold symposiums about how important they are.

Over time, however, because of View A's success the budgets of institutions and grants move towards View A and away from View B.  Further, graduates students see this and realize they have no future under View B and move away from it to other things.  As a result the advocates of View B retire, die or simply get frustrated and move on to other things.  Also, because there are a smaller number of advocates coming into the system to keep it alive it drifts into obscurity.  Finally, over fifty years or so View B becomes essentially a dead view.  Not because there was a specific point at which View B is determined to be dead, but simply because it is ignored by a competing view that is wildly successful. 

So then this is my prediction about the Aristotelian philosophy, at least to the extent of its connection with how the Universe came into existence:  It will simply and slowly drift into irrelevance.  It is already being ignored by Cosmologist; scientists within Cosmology are making one break through after another (the discovery on inflation is just one example); and that area of science is getting the real mark of this shift - all of the money.  Therefore, in fifty years or so no serious person in really going to care about the Aristotelian definition of "cause."  Not necessarily because it has been "proven" incorrect, but just simply because the world works fine without it. 

You can be upset about that; you can jump up and down and say what you arguing is relevant.  It just doesn't make any difference.  The world is moving on.


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jf1354

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RCS, I completely understand how hectic the Monday through Friday work week can be and if you don't reply further to anything I've said. However, I did want to say one more thing in response to your last comment which you are free to respond to or ignore because reading your last comment leaves me thinking my points haven't been fully understood. I'm going to try clarifying with a few questions.

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Unfortunately, this is evidence that the end is soon coming for that philosophical discipline, and it is the cruelest end of all  - death by being ignored.   

What evidence for this supposed death of philosophy do you see? That's a very audacious claim to make if you don't understand what philosophy is. This vision you see of a future where "science" reigns supreme is just pure fantasy (funny how philosophers get charged with all the "useless" armchair thinking when scientists/empiricists spend so much time thinking up even worse illusions) if you can't explain how science has supposedly triumphed. It seems like you're just assuming that philosophy (Aristotelian or not) is wrong without even understanding it.

Do you realize that by having a conversation about the supposed uselessness of philosophy we are in fact having a philosophical discussion? Even if the grant money were to disappear from philosophy programs everywhere (I guess the entire Liberal Arts profession will cease to exist in your fantasy) why assume that people will stop asking questions like, "what is the best way to live my life?", "what are good and evil?", "What does being in love mean?", or probably the most important question of all, "is there a God?" Carroll in his closing remarks even admits there are questions that science can't answer that are better left to philosophy or religion. Why can't you?

Lastly, how does the idea of efficient causes (or even God for that matter) stand in the way of scientific progress? To say otherwise is to not fully grasp what either are.
Yours (and Carroll's) ignorance of both unknowingly shows the need for philosophy as a way of clarifying such questions. You may be right that people might just ignore the question and follow science because it "works" (although the question of what it means to "work" is never quiet elaborated on by scientists. Perhaps a better question for philosophy?)

My prediction is that it won't be until the train veers off the cliff (as it has several times in the last century) before humanity grasps what idiots we were for ignoring the question of where we were going.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 08:57:50 PM by jf1354 »

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osmosis321

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Please then explain what scientific discovery has rendered Aristotle's notion of efficient cause obsolete leaving Craig stuck 2,500 years in the past.

Scientists don't even speak in those terms anymore -  you're not even asking the right question.  Even if cause and effect were absolute, which we know is false, it would not then follow that the origin of cause and effect obeyed the rules of cause and effect.

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wesbaker

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For one, I continue to hear many atheists say that quantum physics somehow disproves Aristotelian metaphysics but I never quite hear an explanation how or even a good understanding of Aristotelian metaphysics for that matter.

That is not necessary.  As Carroll rightly states, your metaphysics must follow your physics, and Craig's metaphysics is stuck to 2500 year old physics.

Don't be misled by the etymology. Andronicus called the work "metaphysica" in his edition of Aristotle because it was the book that came next in the corpus "after" the Physics. The Latins misunderstood this to be Aristotle's title and took it to refer to those things that are "beyond" (i.e., foundational to) physics. Though the Latins misunderstood the meaning of the title, they clearly understood the theme of the book: it is the book about those things that are foundational to physics and all human thought and rationality. This is why Aristotle referred to it as "first principles." In any event, the discipline represented by the English word "metaphysics" does not deal with "that which follows physics." Carroll is simply confused. On the contrary it is metaphysics that is foundational to physics.

For example, does Carroll think that physics is foundational to or must precede numbers and mathematics? Surely not. Without numbers and mathematics there could be no such discipline that we call physics. But numbers and math are part of metaphysics.

Does Carroll think that physics must precede the basic rules of inference or replacement? Surely not. Without modus ponens or commutativity the discipline of physics could not exist. But basic logic is part of metaphysics.

Does Carroll think that physics must precede the rules of induction? Surely not. It is hardly possible to imagine a more important tool in the physicists tool box than induction, but the theory of induction is part of metaphysics.

Does Carroll think that physics must precede the principle of numerical identity of objects (not to even mention persons) through time/space. Surely not. There could be no physics without it, yet it is clearly not a deliverance of physics itself. It is a metaphysical concept.

Does Carroll think that physics must precede the concept of physical laws or laws of nature? Surely not. There could be no physics without it, yet the concept is clearly not something discovered by physics. It is a metaphysical concept.

Does Carroll think that minds other than his own exist such that they can read his physics papers, or write the papers that he reads, or talk about physics problems with him? That assumption is essential to the discipline of physics, but it clearly is not a deliverance of physics. It is a metaphysical concept.

We could go on and on with questions about time, history, memory, perception etc. In some way or another physics depends on these concepts, but none of them is a deliverance of physics. They are all metaphysical issues.

The same can be said about causality. It sounds sophisticated to say that physics does not use or need the concept causality, but this is simply a confusion. Whether physicists use the word or not, what Aristotle meant by "efficient cause" is employed constantly by physicists. The discipline could not exist without it. The denial of this only sounds plausible because it trades on the ambiguity that exists between material and efficient causes. Aristotle's language may be out of style, but the distinctions in question are simply fundamental to rational discourse of any kind, including that discipline we call physics.

One last thing. It simply is not true that philosophy is not discovering anything while physics goes marching forward. The dilemma is posed as if philosophy is somehow impugned when it makes no advances in astrophysics. But that would be like saying that physics is irrelevant because it hasn't told us anything about the fall of Rome. Philosophers are not supposed to be doing the physicists job for them. They might tell them when they are straying beyond the bounds of their discipline, or help them better conceive the scientific method, or debate with them about the metaphysical implications of their findings. But philosophers are not supposed to be actually doing the physicists job for them. Philosophers do philosophy. And they have in fact actually done some pretty remarkable work over the last few centuries. Look at the advances in logic and math (Frege, Russell, etc), philosophy of language (Wittgenstein, Austin, etc), philosophy of society (Searle), more debatable perhaps but still worth mentioning would be epistemology, economics, and even psychology/sociology/cultural anthropology. Some of these like to put mathematical equations in their texts to make themselves look more like physics or chemistry, but they clearly arose from, and in the end they are best considered as branches of philosophy. Like every discipline, physics has a high opinion of itself, and for good reason, but physicists shouldn't think that there really are very many people in the world outside of a few small intellectual circles who ever spend any time seriously thinking about these things. Physics and philosophy are both highly technical and often quite obscure. Most of the world couldn't care less about the things that most excite both philosophers and physicists. The relevance of their respective research projects is not immediately obvious to outsiders, but to those who have acquainted themselves sufficiently with the issues, we believe that they are quite important. A moment's objective reflection by a physicist on his own discipline however, should give him pause before he begins mocking philosophers for their "obscure," "abstract" "mumbo jumbo. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

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osmosis321

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These are mostly just assertions, and mostly wrong.  Physics first, metaphysics second.  Evidence first, conjecture second.  Cause and effect not the rule, Craig just making things up.

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wesbaker

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Okay, give me an empirical argument for any of them. Numbers, math, logic, numerical identity through space/time, induction, other minds . . . take your pick. You can't do physics without them, but not one of them can be empirically demonstrated.

May I introduce you to a gentleman named David Hume? He would be interested to know about it if, after all these years, you have an empirical solution to these issues.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 10:10:12 AM by wesbaker »

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wholesoul

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This post was meant for the youtube video "William Lane Craig v An Actual Scientist" by TheMessianicManic. It seems like I won the argument there and have been banned from posting any further responses to the post-victory commentary, secondary arguments or continual personal attacks. I argued effectively that Guth and Valenkin made statements that fully support WLC and in turn the premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument. The Atheist maker of the video clearly did not like facts to win the day, so he decided to bar me from making further comments. Here is what I was going to say about the last post directed to me. "Theists get [Militant] Atheists all too well. Beginning with leaving the second part of its limited credo out (“We SIMPLY believe there is no God...”); the second part is, “...and if you believe there is a God we will belittle, berate, and blatantly insult you.”) We get that Atheism is convenient, unproven, contradictory and otherwise incoherent. Atheism is unproven, contradictory and incoherent because by its own putative standards you should believe only those things that are scientific and logical (i.e., proven). However, Atheists use the now defunct Philosophy of Science standard of Logical-Positivism as its paradigm, truth framework or evidential standard conveniently because the new Philosophy of Science standard is falsifiability. In order to be a scientific or logical belief even its limited credo has to be falsified (i.e., tested) first before it can or should be believed. Again, where is the standalone proof that Atheism is true? Atheists evade their scientific, logical or epistemic duty by not answering on what basis do they know there is no God. Moreover, they claim to want to see the scientific evidence or logical proof for God, yet when they have access to scientific findings or logical proofs for God, they do everything to deny, disrespect or denounce such scientific findings or logical proofs. The present video is clear and convincing evidence of this very behavior. In a premeditated manner the maker of this video wanted to discredit WLC and in turn the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA) by saying WLC was getting it wrong - through lack of proper understanding or plain dishonesty - but in fact two of the three authors of the BGV Theorem made statements that fully support WLC and in turn the KCA. To paraphrase Richard Swinburne, God gives us just enough evidence of his existence so that those that want to believe will believe and those that don’t want to believe will not have their freewill overridden by overwhelming evidence. In other words, God respects freewill so much that he doesn’t make an ironclad case for himself. Think about that! But wait, Naturalism says there can be no such thing as freewill so how can you choose any belief really, if its just chemical reactions to you? On these and many other points, we Theists get Atheists all too well. Your personal insults tell me that you have no scientific or logical argument to present, therefore the resorting to this favorite rhetorical tactic of the unsophisticated Atheist."

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osmosis321

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Okay, give me an empirical argument for any of them. Numbers, math, logic, numerical identity through space/time, induction, other minds . . . take your pick. You can't do physics without them, but not one of them can be empirically demonstrated.

For any of what.  I don't know what you're asking.