A Couple of Fair Questions

[lucious]

Carrolls abnegation of causality is wholly arbirtrary masquerading as science.


Mathematical models need not invoke cause, so what? Tha'ts nothing new.

[osmosis321]

At what point does causation/ contingency end? Where does it stop?

Depends.  If the universe is eternal, it never stops.  If the universe had a beginning, it stops at that beginning.

And as for me telling you to get an education, that's a fair comment.  If you think Craig's evangelical version is even worth giving serious consideration, then you need a real education.  Craig is not a scientist, he just plays one on TV.

[pat1911]

At what point does causation/ contingency end? Where does it stop?

Depends.  If the universe is eternal, it never stops.  If the universe had a beginning, it stops at that beginning.

And as for me telling you to get an education, that's a fair comment.  If you think Craig's evangelical version is even worth giving serious consideration, then you need a real education.  Craig is not a scientist, he just plays one on TV.

Even if the universe is eternal, that doesn't beget it came from nothing, or 'just exists'. The universe, if current science be right, is very contingent on natural law, which is eternal regardless of the universe existing or not.
Why does electromagnetism work? And why does it always follow the 'rules' of it's nature? Smae with gravity, motion, etc.

It's hard to make a case for the universe as brute fact when all the 'stuff' in it, and that which makes it up and defines it is all contingent. I don't see how one can make a case where the very thing that defines the universe is contingent, but the universe itself is not.
In fact, the universe is contingent on what is in it. Without matter and energy, there is no universe, no time, nothing.

[Lambert]

Does time exist?

If time has no existence why does it need a cause to be?

Then if time does not exist, how can the universe exist, and if it does not exist how can it have an origin in time?

How can the universe be eternal if it does not exist?

And how can natural law effect the universe if it does not exist . . .  in the same as natural law affects time?

You first must define infinite, eternal and temporal, and then you will soon find that the universe does not exist in the same way that time does not exist.

[osmosis321]

Even if the universe is eternal, that doesn't beget it came from nothing, or 'just exists'. The universe, if current science be right, is very contingent on natural law, which is eternal regardless of the universe existing or not.

mmmmk..  I don't know what you're talking about and neither do you.

[osmosis321]

Carrolls abnegation of causality is wholly arbirtrary masquerading as science.

Don't shoot the messenger, that's the real face of modern science.

Mathematical models need not invoke cause, so what?

Uhm..  so..  Craig is full of shit.  As Carroll notes, his utterances are "not even false."  That's about the worst put-down possible, and it's totally appropriate because Craig's a clown.

[pat1911]

Does time exist?

Why does it matter? And yes, it does.

If time has no existence why does it need a cause to be?

Your assuming my answer would be no?

Then if time does not exist, how can the universe exist, and if it does not exist how can it have an origin in time?

How can the universe be eternal if it does not exist?

And how can natural law effect the universe if it does not exist . . .  in the same as natural law affects time?

You first must define infinite, eternal and temporal, and then you will soon find that the universe does not exist in the same way that time does not exist.

Is your argument that the universe does not exist?

[Lambert]

Does time exist?

Why does it matter? And yes, it does.

If time has no existence why does it need a cause to be?

Your assuming my answer would be no?

Then if time does not exist, how can the universe exist, and if it does not exist how can it have an origin in time?

How can the universe be eternal if it does not exist?

And how can natural law effect the universe if it does not exist . . .  in the same as natural law affects time?

You first must define infinite, eternal and temporal, and then you will soon find that the universe does not exist in the same way that time does not exist.

Is your argument that the universe does not exist?

Correct, and by exist it must have a material cause for it to be.

Now if you say that the universe is, that is different and true in the same way as time is but does not exist.

The universe is in which material exist and time is needed for eternity to be, and eternal is needed to make infinity known.

Simple concepts in that order.

Material has being after the Being it is formed by design to be its own element form, and from there cells are possible to be formed on their own and in their own way by design (but not all in one day). This is where bronze is bronze because the atomic composition forms it that way, in the same way as life is life because the atomic composition allows it that way. This allowance is what we call truth that as children we can buy candy with and as adult we can be the Being after who's image we came to be.

 

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[osmosis321]

That's nonsense.

[Lambert]

That's nonsense.

I could also just say "essence precedes existence," but that would make a it worse.

[pat1911]

That's nonsense.

I kinda have to agree. I don't know what he is talking about.

[Lambert]

That's nonsense.

I kinda have to agree. I don't know what he is talking about.

Don't worry, I have heard that before.

[pat1911]

That's nonsense.

I could also just say "essence precedes existence," but that would make a it worse.

This would actually be the first thing you said that makes any sense.

[pat1911]

That's nonsense.

If you're still up for reasonable philosophical/ scientific debate, I am willing. I don't agree with Lambert and I don't know what his point is.

[Lambert]

That's nonsense.

If you're still up for reasonable philosophical/ scientific debate, I am willing. I don't agree with Lambert and I don't know what his point is.

It is not difficult to understand.

Time is, but is without an existence of being.

Space is, but is without a existence of being.

God is, but is without an existence of being.

Life is, but is without and existence of being.

Truth is, but is without an existence of being.

You are, and have an existence of being.

Therefore, you are all of the above and the center of the universe in the end.