Logical Coherence

[Mselzer]

I believe in the Trinity, based on Scriptural support, but I have often heard Dr. Craig state that God can not be a logical incoherence, like being a married bachelor, or a round square. I am curious about this because it would appear that the concept of the Trinity could be viewed as a logical incoherence. Any perspective is welcomed. Thanks.

[bskeptic]

It's kind of dangerous to say that God could do logically impossible things, because for one thing there need to be limits on God to have a solution to the problem of evil.

Nevertheless, mystics have claimed that God doesn't make logical sense. See for example "The Vision of God" by Nicholas of Cusa.

From Michael von Brück:

"We have already heard Suzuki's extraordinary Statement on the nature of the experience of prajnä— that is, the experience of Ultimate Truth. He stated that shünyatä remains in itself, though in a process of differentiation. Shünyatä is the reservoir of infinite complexity comprehending all actual and possible manifestations. Therefore, it creates out of nothing in a process of differentiation, while remaining beyond differentiation. Beyond the distinction of static and dynamic, it includes both. Shünyatä therefore can be termed both static and dynamic, one and multiple— or perichöresis.

I cannot imagine a more profound philosophical interpretation of the Trinity. The Trinity is this reservoir of infinite possibilities, differentiating itself eternally in three persons, and yet remaining one. It is a differentiated oneness— not monism, but advaita. Advaita is a category transcending logical distinctions, therefore out of the reach of concepts and neat definitions. So we have to create paradoxes in order to point toward tathatä or to express the experience of participating in the Trinity....

Reality is a process of "differentiating itself and yet remaining in itself undifferentiated" (Suzuki). This is what Buddhism calls shünyatä and what Christianity experiences as the Trinity. We participate totally in this dynamism, which is the Ultimate, God. We are eternally merging into God and God into us, but we are never sucked up into an undifferentiated identity"


http://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/4297/1/4297.pdf

[bskeptic]

God can be wholly good, omnipotent, omniscient, and make it the case that there is huge amounts of evil

But why would a good God do that?

[bskeptic]

God can be wholly good, omnipotent, omniscient, and make it the case that there is huge amounts of evil

But why would a good God do that?

Because if God can do the logically impossible, there is no contradiction.

"Can do" is not the same as "would do".

[kravarnik]

God can be wholly good, omnipotent, omniscient, and make it the case that there is huge amounts of evil

But why would a good God do that?

No offense, but you seem to not understand what ontologicalme meant. If God is able to do the logically impossible, then He can create a world full of evil(evil only, no good at all), but yet remain wholly-good. Because then logical contradictions don't exist for Him.

You might say - but He's a good God, why would He do such a thing ; well, our essential nature is limited by logic, but it no longer holds for God, if He's omnipotent in the absolute sense. See, I can't be a good person and a bad person at the same time, because it's a contradiction and it seems to me that this world obeys logic. But God can be wholly-good and will such a thing, because He's not bound to logic, so you can't really call Him out on His bullshit, you know. As I've said in other threads on this topic - things get really nasty if we declare God omnipotent in the absolute sense. We just can't sepak meaningfully about Him any longer.

I'd dare to ask, prolly one of the most important questions in this case(at least to me), what keeps God what He is, if there's no logic? There must be something that makes Him what He is, otherwise He could change at wish, He could create a more powerful God(yes, it doesn't make sense to us, because God is already described as the most powerful entity in existence, but remember - He can do the logically impossible, so He can create a more powerful God).

What is sustaining God in this case? We are what we are, because of what logic necessitates, but what about God?

[Maxximiliann]

Luke 1:36 states that Mary and Elizabeth are cousins, and that John is 6 months older than Jesus, making John and Jesus second cousins. Luke 3:23 says Jesus was about 30 years old when he was baptized by John, and here is where the purported "mystery" begins.
 
The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.
 
When you read Luke 3:21, 22, John had the unspeakable privilege of baptizing his Creator, who was also his second cousin. But the incredible thing is that John was 6 months old BEFORE his Creator was born.
 
The Trinity teachers say that the Holy Spirit is also God. So, now, get this! While John is standing there in the water, he sees God come down and sit down on top of his own head. And, that's not all - he gets a good look at God. God is now either a bird sitting on top of what looks like a man (or is it the other way round?)
 
Then, he discovers this God-Bird-Man is also a ventriloquist - while he stands there in utter disbelief, God tells a deliberate LIE to the people who are watching. Obviously he doesn't want the people to know that he is really God, so he throws his voice to make it appear like someone in Heaven is speaking and saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

If the Athanasian Creed is truth why is it so illogical?

[Will]

I believe in the Trinity, based on Scriptural support, but I have often heard Dr. Craig state that God can not be a logical incoherence, like being a married bachelor, or a round square. I am curious about this because it would appear that the concept of the Trinity could be viewed as a logical incoherence. Any perspective is welcomed. Thanks.

Check out this book review; pretty indepth, but it covers the entire argument of the book without being the book.  The book addresses the problem of the trinity as a case study of this issue.

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/04/paradox-in-christian-theology.html

[Soyeong]

I believe in the Trinity, based on Scriptural support, but I have often heard Dr. Craig state that God can not be a logical incoherence, like being a married bachelor, or a round square. I am curious about this because it would appear that the concept of the Trinity could be viewed as a logical incoherence. Any perspective is welcomed. Thanks.

Funny things happen at an atomic level.  For instance, one molecule of nitrate is all three resonance structures all the time and never just one of them. The three are separate but all the same, and they are one. This is hard to wrap our brains around, but that's not the same as being logically contradictory.

[wetzel]

Yes I support you, I also believe in trinity. I am writer at custom essay writing service. Recently we had a debate on Christianity and trinity! Almost all the members have believe in Trinity. And we are planning to do a research on it!

[Maxximiliann]

I believe in the Trinity, based on Scriptural support, but I have often heard Dr. Craig state that God can not be a logical incoherence, like being a married bachelor, or a round square. I am curious about this because it would appear that the concept of the Trinity could be viewed as a logical incoherence. Any perspective is welcomed. Thanks.

Luke 1:36 states that Mary and Elizabeth are cousins, and that John is 6 months older than Jesus, making John and Jesus second cousins. Luke 3:23 says Jesus was about 30 years old when he was baptized by John, and here is where the purported "mystery" begins.
 
The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.
 
When you read Luke 3:21, 22, John had the unspeakable privilege of baptizing his Creator, who was also his second cousin. But the incredible thing is that John was 6 months old BEFORE his Creator was born.
 
The Trinity teachers say that the Holy Spirit is also God. So, now, get this! While John is standing there in the water, he sees God come down and sit down on top of his own head. And, that's not all - he gets a good look at God. God is now either a bird sitting on top of what looks like a man (or is it the other way round?)
 
Then, he discovers this God-Bird-Man is also a ventriloquist - while he stands there in utter disbelief, God tells a deliberate LIE to the people who are watching. Obviously he doesn't want the people to know that he is really God, so he throws his voice to make it appear like someone in Heaven is speaking and saying "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

If the Athanasian Creed is truth why is it so illogical?

[Will]

The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.

Don't trinity teachers teach that Jesus is a man with all these manly relations?

[Maxximiliann]

The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.

Don't trinity teachers teach that Jesus is a man with all these manly relations?

No. They teach that Jesus IS God Almighty.

[Will]

The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.

Don't trinity teachers teach that Jesus is a man with all these manly relations?

No. They teach that Jesus IS God Almighty.

So the athanasian creed doesn't affirm the humanity of the Christ? 

[Maxximiliann]

The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.

Don't trinity teachers teach that Jesus is a man with all these manly relations?

No. They teach that Jesus IS God Almighty.

So the athanasian creed doesn't affirm the humanity of the Christ? 

No. It teaches that he was both fully man and fully God, you know like a married-bachelor, dehydrated rain or gelatinous diamonds ...

[Will]

The Trinity teachers claim that Jesus is God. This immediately makes John God's second cousin, and makes John 6 months older than God - and man was here on earth thousands of years BEFORE God was born. This is ridiculous, but it gets even better.

Don't trinity teachers teach that Jesus is a man with all these manly relations?

No. They teach that Jesus IS God Almighty.

So the athanasian creed doesn't affirm the humanity of the Christ? 

No. It teaches that he was both fully man and fully God, you know like a married-bachelor, dehydrated rain or gelatinous diamonds ...

Since the creed states: One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. , your counter example of a married-bachelor doesn't work.