veka

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 04:08:39 AM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
"Denial of knowledge of God is only as cogent as the conception of knowledge on which it is based." - William P. Alston

1

Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2013, 07:06:34 AM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
Then why do you mendaciously teach that Christ is God?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

2

Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2013, 06:39:12 AM »
Here's a response I gave in a thread recently to a person trying to understand the Trinity. I think it should help clear up any contradiction you perceive:

Quote
The Trinity is like this. A = father, B = son, C = Holy Spirit, D = God.

A is D
B is D
C is D

Okay, so we've established that all of these are D. It does not follow that therefore C is A, or A is B, and so on. For example:

John is human
Dave is human
Bob is human

Therefore:

Bob is Dave?
John is Bob?
Dave is John?

No, that simply does not follow.

To provide an accurate illustration of the analogy, think of your hand. You have 5 discreet digits on your hand. They're all very much a part of the hand, and they are all hand digits (as opposed to toe digits, or something like that). They're distinct from one another, in that your index finger is not the same as your ring finger and so on. But, they're not separate. They're very much connected and part of the greater whole, the hand. Think of the hand as God and the persons as fingers. The persons are a part of God, very much part of the same being, yet distinct in that they're not the same as each other.

Do note, the view I'm espousing is called Social Trinitarian Monotheism. It's held to by JP Moreland, William Lane Craig, and I believe Alvin Plantinga (not certain). That does not mean every Trinitarian agrees with it, it's just my view.

I know it's odd since this isn't really tailored to reply directly to your post, but I think it adequately covers your post.
In your analogy, any distinct finger is not your hand but, rather, 1/6th of your hand.

In other words, you're arguing Jesus is 1/3rd God.

Okay. He's still a God person, in the same way you finger is a hand digit (not a toe digit). Fine by me.
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

Pretty well, though my view is more nuanced than that.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

3

Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2013, 06:44:34 AM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
Then why do you mendaciously teach that Christ is God?

Seems an issue of semantics to me. I'd argue there are two approaches to answering your point here:

1. Substitute "Jesus is God" for "Jesus is part of the Godhead" or "a God person".

2. There are different types of persons, e.g. human persons, alien persons, angelic persons, demonic persons, and none of them are the same. In that way, Jesus is a God person, and is thus God in the same way that you're a human person and thus human. This isn't exactly my understanding, but it demonstrates my point I think.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

4

Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2013, 10:14:07 PM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
Then why do you mendaciously teach that Christ is God?

Seems an issue of semantics to me. I'd argue there are two approaches to answering your point here:

1. Substitute "Jesus is God" for "Jesus is part of the Godhead" or "a God person".

2. There are different types of persons, e.g. human persons, alien persons, angelic persons, demonic persons, and none of them are the same. In that way, Jesus is a God person, and is thus God in the same way that you're a human person and thus human. This isn't exactly my understanding, but it demonstrates my point I think.
If you could clarify for me, which of the following best identifies your apriorism:

1. Modalism

2. Latin Trinitarianism
2.1 Divine Life Stream Theories
2.2 Relative Identity Theories

3. Social Trinitarianism
3.1 Functional Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.2 Trinity Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.3 Perichoretic Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.4 Group Mind Monotheist Social Trinitarianism

4. Mysterianism
4.1 Negative Mysterianism
4.2 Positive Mysterianism
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

5

Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2013, 01:50:41 PM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
Then why do you mendaciously teach that Christ is God?

Seems an issue of semantics to me. I'd argue there are two approaches to answering your point here:

1. Substitute "Jesus is God" for "Jesus is part of the Godhead" or "a God person".

2. There are different types of persons, e.g. human persons, alien persons, angelic persons, demonic persons, and none of them are the same. In that way, Jesus is a God person, and is thus God in the same way that you're a human person and thus human. This isn't exactly my understanding, but it demonstrates my point I think.
If you could clarify for me, which of the following best identifies your apriorism:

1. Modalism

2. Latin Trinitarianism
2.1 Divine Life Stream Theories
2.2 Relative Identity Theories

3. Social Trinitarianism
3.1 Functional Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.2 Trinity Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.3 Perichoretic Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.4 Group Mind Monotheist Social Trinitarianism

4. Mysterianism
4.1 Negative Mysterianism
4.2 Positive Mysterianism

I've told you a great many times... 3.2 lol.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

6

Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2013, 02:26:23 PM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
Then why do you mendaciously teach that Christ is God?

Seems an issue of semantics to me. I'd argue there are two approaches to answering your point here:

1. Substitute "Jesus is God" for "Jesus is part of the Godhead" or "a God person".

2. There are different types of persons, e.g. human persons, alien persons, angelic persons, demonic persons, and none of them are the same. In that way, Jesus is a God person, and is thus God in the same way that you're a human person and thus human. This isn't exactly my understanding, but it demonstrates my point I think.
If you could clarify for me, which of the following best identifies your apriorism:

1. Modalism

2. Latin Trinitarianism
2.1 Divine Life Stream Theories
2.2 Relative Identity Theories

3. Social Trinitarianism
3.1 Functional Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.2 Trinity Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.3 Perichoretic Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.4 Group Mind Monotheist Social Trinitarianism

4. Mysterianism
4.1 Negative Mysterianism
4.2 Positive Mysterianism

I've told you a great many times... 3.2 lol.
I'm sorry. I guess it's been a while :)

Did you also explain why your version is correct while all others false?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

7

Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2013, 09:57:12 PM »
So, per your views, Christ is not God but 1/3 God, correct?

One of the three persons of God, yes.
Then why do you mendaciously teach that Christ is God?

Seems an issue of semantics to me. I'd argue there are two approaches to answering your point here:

1. Substitute "Jesus is God" for "Jesus is part of the Godhead" or "a God person".

2. There are different types of persons, e.g. human persons, alien persons, angelic persons, demonic persons, and none of them are the same. In that way, Jesus is a God person, and is thus God in the same way that you're a human person and thus human. This isn't exactly my understanding, but it demonstrates my point I think.
If you could clarify for me, which of the following best identifies your apriorism:

1. Modalism

2. Latin Trinitarianism
2.1 Divine Life Stream Theories
2.2 Relative Identity Theories

3. Social Trinitarianism
3.1 Functional Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.2 Trinity Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.3 Perichoretic Monotheist Social Trinitarianism
3.4 Group Mind Monotheist Social Trinitarianism

4. Mysterianism
4.1 Negative Mysterianism
4.2 Positive Mysterianism

I've told you a great many times... 3.2 lol.
I'm sorry. I guess it's been a while :)

Did you also explain why your version is correct while all others false?

No. Is that needed for Trinitarianism to be true? Nope. If I were to discuss whether or not Jesus is Michael the Archangel, you certainly wouldn't say that he must be, or that if he isn't then he must be part of a Trinity.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

8

Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 04:53:05 PM »
Is that needed for Trinitarianism to be true?

You don't honestly believe multiple diametrically opposed views are all veridical, do you?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

9

Curt J. O'Brian

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2013, 02:39:58 PM »
Is that needed for Trinitarianism to be true?

You don't honestly believe multiple diametrically opposed views are all veridical, do you?

No, but that doesn't mean that what they share in common isn't true. Three persons, one God, that is all that one needs to hold to in order to be a Trinitarian.
"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but upon what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force! But Jesus Christ founded His upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.”
–Napoleon Bonaparte I

10

Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2013, 09:00:47 AM »
Is that needed for Trinitarianism to be true?

You don't honestly believe multiple diametrically opposed views are all veridical, do you?

No, but that doesn't mean that what they share in common isn't true. Three persons, one God, that is all that one needs to hold to in order to be a Trinitarian.

Don't you mean three persons, three gods?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

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John Dee

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2013, 05:23:43 PM »
Jacob Pressures
As I stated elsewhere insisting on doing math with the trinity is a category error and so is likely to get you the wrong results – this is not sour grapes dissonance, it’s a fact. (Avoiding dissonance is not always avoidance, for reason and coherence can do it as well.)

However your own mathematical construction is wrong anyway.
i.e.
A, God is made up of 3 divine persons (autonomous entities).
B. God is made up of 3 gods.
Statement B is clearly false for 1 x God does not equal 3 x God. If you are imagining 3 Gods of a Trinitarian nature then you would have 9 divine persons.

To be of one substance with another, is to be made of the same kind of stuff, but not necessarily the exact same instances of that stuff. It’s like chopping a blob of tapioca into 3 blobs which all retain the essential qualities of blobs of tapioca pudding, and yet then finding that all three blobs continue to work to one purpose as if they were still one blob. Of course if you then put the blobs all back together again you would find you still only had one blob of tapioca pudding. i.e. 1 + 1 + 1 would equal  1, if we are counting in the base of blobs.

To my mind the trinity is clearly distinguished by economy or role in the single overall creative purpose, each divine person taking on a different role (our divine blobs are now dressing up with roles) which can be shown to be essential to the act of creation if freewill and relationship is to be involved.

I am less clear on the ontology outside of creation for we can know little of this anyway. When the idea of trinity is extended to us it is always wrapped in creation, we cannot encounter it any other way because even our language is wrapped up in creation. The three divine persons of the trinity come with their creative roles attached to their names.

Craig argues that love being a necessary part of the divine character must imply relationship within it. (at least 2 divine persons in the Godhead beyond creation) But you could just as easily state that such love must of necessity wish (even though it does not need) to multiply its opportunities for such interactions with others and therefore create the entirely other to enable such. But to do so (in our world) needs 3 divine persons, one to support the entirely other through incarnation, one to enable the language of spiritual communication with that other, and of course the original to whom the communication or love is then made. To this end I think the economic aspect is our best handle on the trinity, allied to the fact that tapioca blobs (in place of spiritual blobs) can be coherently be shown to defy base ten maths,( if you assume base blob) and then there is no hint of dissonance or sour grapes involved. But as CS Lewis pointed out remember that the tapioca blob is a substitution for a spirit person. The incarnation in Christ is in the end a better visualisation than just a blob.

12

Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2013, 09:29:13 PM »
Jacob Pressures
As I stated elsewhere insisting on doing math with the trinity is a category error and so is likely to get you the wrong results – this is not sour grapes dissonance, it’s a fact. (Avoiding dissonance is not always avoidance, for reason and coherence can do it as well.)

However your own mathematical construction is wrong anyway.
i.e.
A, God is made up of 3 divine persons (autonomous entities).
B. God is made up of 3 gods.
Statement B is clearly false for 1 x God does not equal 3 x God. If you are imagining 3 Gods of a Trinitarian nature then you would have 9 divine persons.

To be of one substance with another, is to be made of the same kind of stuff, but not necessarily the exact same instances of that stuff. It’s like chopping a blob of tapioca into 3 blobs which all retain the essential qualities of blobs of tapioca pudding, and yet then finding that all three blobs continue to work to one purpose as if they were still one blob. Of course if you then put the blobs all back together again you would find you still only had one blob of tapioca pudding. i.e. 1 + 1 + 1 would equal  1, if we are counting in the base of blobs.

To my mind the trinity is clearly distinguished by economy or role in the single overall creative purpose, each divine person taking on a different role (our divine blobs are now dressing up with roles) which can be shown to be essential to the act of creation if freewill and relationship is to be involved.

I am less clear on the ontology outside of creation for we can know little of this anyway. When the idea of trinity is extended to us it is always wrapped in creation, we cannot encounter it any other way because even our language is wrapped up in creation. The three divine persons of the trinity come with their creative roles attached to their names.

Craig argues that love being a necessary part of the divine character must imply relationship within it. (at least 2 divine persons in the Godhead beyond creation) But you could just as easily state that such love must of necessity wish (even though it does not need) to multiply its opportunities for such interactions with others and therefore create the entirely other to enable such. But to do so (in our world) needs 3 divine persons, one to support the entirely other through incarnation, one to enable the language of spiritual communication with that other, and of course the original to whom the communication or love is then made. To this end I think the economic aspect is our best handle on the trinity, allied to the fact that tapioca blobs (in place of spiritual blobs) can be coherently be shown to defy base ten maths,( if you assume base blob) and then there is no hint of dissonance or sour grapes involved. But as CS Lewis pointed out remember that the tapioca blob is a substitution for a spirit person. The incarnation in Christ is in the end a better visualisation than just a blob.


That was some pretty fancy legerdemain, I have to admit.

So, if I understand you correctly, no matter how many blobs of tapioca one keeps adding together there's no change to the aggregate mass of the tapioca. Is that correct?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17

13

John Dee

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2013, 04:18:23 AM »
Maxximilliann

I hope the mass comment isn’t a matter of sour grapes. It’s a mistake to import back space time considerations into a discussion about the nature of the creator of space and time?

Unfortunately we are all prone to mislead ourselves in this manner because of how wedded we all are to space and time. If we use any kind of example we must then immediately reaffirm that the space and time dependant aspects are not relevant. This is of course the problem with Molinism which is still handling God’s foreknowledge on an in time basis when the first person of the trinity is always outside of it. The explanation for why Jesus does not have complete knowledge is because as he is incarnate he is now in time.

Of course where God and creation is concerned there are at least two angles, his essential pre space and time being, and then also they way he reveals himself to his creation through the essential creative roles required to enable the creative expansion of love through freewill and relationship. That is freedom for physical adaption beyond original forms but also spiritual freedom to enable moral responsibility and thus interaction relationship and love.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Help a Trinitarian Reach Congitive Dissonance!
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2013, 06:03:01 AM »
Maxximilliann

I hope the mass comment isn’t a matter of sour grapes. It’s a mistake to import back space time considerations into a discussion about the nature of the creator of space and time?

Unfortunately we are all prone to mislead ourselves in this manner because of how wedded we all are to space and time. If we use any kind of example we must then immediately reaffirm that the space and time dependant aspects are not relevant. This is of course the problem with Molinism which is still handling God’s foreknowledge on an in time basis when the first person of the trinity is always outside of it. The explanation for why Jesus does not have complete knowledge is because as he is incarnate he is now in time.

Of course where God and creation is concerned there are at least two angles, his essential pre space and time being, and then also they way he reveals himself to his creation through the essential creative roles required to enable the creative expansion of love through freewill and relationship. That is freedom for physical adaption beyond original forms but also spiritual freedom to enable moral responsibility and thus interaction relationship and love.

You lost me. How does this answer my query?
May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . . give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him." -Ephesians 1:17