Merely one perfect physical human life?

[Biep]

• What was being paid?
• To whom was this price paid?
• What did this payment cover?  What was it the price for?

1. Christ's blood -
“[Christ] entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place [“heaven itself”] and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.”—Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 2:2. (Brackets mine)

All right - I may agree here, depending on how you interpret this.  Do you mean literal physical blood, as in leaving a desiccated body, or 'blood' as in 'soul', 'life' (Leviticus 17:11)?
Jem seems to mean the latter.
So we agree the body was not the ransom, is that correct?  For elsewhere Jem seems to imply so when she writes:

Jesus had no sin in his physical body.  What he sacrificed was not taken back.

Or here:

To be raised in the same body as he died would be to take back his ransom sacrifice.  His body was offered up, he could not take it back.

2. To Jehovah God, the Father -
"Christ entered [] into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us." -Hebrews 9:24 (Brackets mine)

All right again - here we seem in clear agreement, even though I don't think that verse proves it, as it speaks rather of Jesus' current activities than of His payment.  Anyway, your citing this verse seems to indicate that you don't take 'blood' literally, as here the whole of Jesus is meant, and I seem to remember you believed that (flesh and) blood could not enter heaven.
But again, Jem seems to disagree, writing:

The fact that the two realms collided was because of the disobedience of a spirit being who dragged the human race into his own rebellion.  He held us to ransom and our Father paid the price for our release. Does it have to be more complicated than that?

3. "And [Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s." -1 John 2:2 (Bracket mine)
Jesus gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice and so appeased, or satisfied, Jehovah God's requirement of perfect justice. On the basis of that sacrifice, the Father could now extend mercy, and he could forgive the sins of those who exercise faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice.—John 3:16; Romans 6:23.

And again I agree.
But again, Jem seems to disagree.  She writes:

Christ was the exact equivalent of Adam. He had to be to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life that Adam threw away. He is called "the last Adam" for that reason. (1Cor 15:22, 45)

So Jesus' ransom would merely cover Adam's finite life - not even his infinite sin, let alone the sins of the rest of us.
Such a minimal payment would only cover the loss incurred (and in fact only a negligible part of that), and not even begin to pay for the guilt of Adam, let alone my guilt.

[Maxximiliann]

• What was being payed?
• To whom was this price payed?
• What did this payment cover?  What was it the price for?

1. Christ's blood -
“[Christ] entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place [“heaven itself”] and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.”—Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 2:2. (Brackets mine)

All right - I may agree here, depending on how you interpret this.  Do you mean literal physical blood, as in leaving a desiccated body, or 'blood' as in 'soul', 'life' (Leviticus 17:11)?

Jehovah God has never been interested in the substance of blood but, rather, in the life it represents as we see at Leviticus 17:11. This is why it is of such extraordinary significance to him.

[Maxximiliann]

2. To Jehovah God, the Father -
"Christ entered [] into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us." -Hebrews 9:24 (Brackets mine)

All right again - here we seem in clear agreement, even though I don't think that verse proves it, as it speaks rather of Jesus' current activities than of His payment. 

In conjunction with Hebrews 9:12 it's conspicuous that Christ went before the presence of Jehovah God to present the value of his perfect life as ransom for our sins.

Anyway, your citing this verse seems to indicate that you don't take 'blood' literally, as here the whole of Jesus is meant, and I seem to remember you believed that (flesh and) blood could not enter heaven.

It is what we're taught at 1 Corinthians 15:50.

[Maxximiliann]

3. "And [Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s." -1 John 2:2 (Bracket mine)
Jesus gave his life as a propitiatory sacrifice and so appeased, or satisfied, Jehovah God's requirement of perfect justice. On the basis of that sacrifice, the Father could now extend mercy, and he could forgive the sins of those who exercise faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice.—John 3:16; Romans 6:23.

And again I agree.

But again, Jem seems to disagree.  She writes:

Christ was the exact equivalent of Adam. He had to be to offer his perfect life in exchange for the perfect life that Adam threw away. He is called "the last Adam" for that reason. (1Cor 15:22, 45)

So Jesus' ransom would merely cover Adam's finite life - not even his infinite sin, let alone the sins of the rest of us.
Such a minimal payment would only cover the loss incurred (and in fact only a negligeable part of that), and not even begin to pay for the guilt of Adam, let alone my guilt.

I won't pretend to speak for Jem, however, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45 does call Jesus "the last Adam."

Now, since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (in effect, a second Adam), being of corresponding value, could balance the scales of justice. Because Adam was a willful sinner, he could not benefit. However, because the penalty imposed on all mankind would be paid by someone else, Adam’s offspring could be delivered.

[Biep]

I won't pretend to speak for Jem,

Of course.  I had started this thread to discuss her views, which I find plainly confusing.  It is nice of you to try, but I really hope she will come and defend her views.
(But then again, you too seem at times to waver and think Jesus' body was the payment.)

And by the way, I only recently discovered that in reply #7 I once wrote 'physical' instead of 'spiritual', making the sentence nonsense.  You rightly caught that in #9, but at the time I was blind for the error in my quote.  I have since corrected my text.  Sorry.

Recently she wrote:

The dead have paid sin's wages and are covered by the sacrifice of Christ (who died for all) so any "unrighteous" dead ones will be resurrected after judgment day to be given a second chance. If these refuse to bring their lives into harmony with God's requirements,  they will experience "the second death" from which there is no resurrection.

This seems to indicate that the value of Jesus' sacrifice was at least equal and opposite to the (negative infinite) value of all sins of all people - as opposed to merely ony finite physical human life (which Adam had already paid - Genesis 5:5).

however, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45 does call Jesus "the last Adam."

Indeed it does.  Verse 22 explains in what sense they are comparable - the antitype being of the opposite sign of the type - and the context of 45 shows the infinite difference in value.  The first Adam was merely earthly dust, but the second was heavenly.  The first merely had received life; the second had the power to give life (cf. John 5:26).  As with Romans 5:15-17, the passage stresses that the difference is both in the sign (Romans 5:16) and in the magnitude (Romans 5:15).

Now, since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (in effect, a second Adam), being of corresponding value, could balance the scales of justice. Because Adam was a willful sinner, he could not benefit. However, because the penalty imposed on all mankind would be paid by someone else, Adam’s offspring could be delivered.

• If one physical life would have been sufficient, Adam's death would have paid it all, his offspring would not have been under death, at least before the coming of the Law (Romans 5:14).  So the "corresponding value" here must refer to the value of the guilt of Adam.  But that requires a being that, while indeed a perfect human, is at the same time infinitely more than that.
• There is the pagan Roman concept of the scales of Justice again.  The Law recognises equivalent restitution for a loss, and limit of revenge by bodily harm.  The second doesn't apply here, as God wasn't bodily harmed, and the first was satisfied when the stolen Fruit of Justice was reattached to the tree of Law by Pontius Pilate.  This does nothing to pay for the guilt of mankind - a caught thief doesn't get off by merely returning (the value of) the stolen goods.

There is an equivalence principle in the Bible, though: ones love is equal to what one is willing to suffer for the other (Romans 5:6-8).  Praise be to God Who showed His infinite love for us!

[Maxximiliann]

And by the way, I only recently discovered that in reply #7 I once wrote 'physical' instead of 'spiritual', making the sentence nonsense.  You rightly caught that in #9, but at the time I was blind for the error in my quote.  I have since corrected my text.  Sorry.

No worries my friend

• If one physical life would have been sufficient, Adam's death would have paid it all, his offspring would not have been under death, at least before the coming of the Law (Romans 5:14).  So the "corresponding value" here must refer to the value of the guilt of Adam.  But that requires a being that, while indeed a perfect human, is at the same time infinitely more than that.
• There is the pagan Roman concept of the scales of Justice again.  The Law recognises equivalent restitution for a loss, and limit of revenge by bodily harm.  The second doesn't apply here, as God wasn't bodily harmed, and the first was satisfied when the stolen Fruit of Justice was reattached to the tree of Law by Pontius Pilate.  This does nothing to pay for the guilt of mankind - a caught thief doesn't get off by merely returning (the value of) the stolen goods.

That’s the thing, though. It’s not an issue of guilt. God is not punishing us for something we did not do in the Garden of Eden.

The issue, rather, is one of inherited defect. Just as a child from a reckless mother is born with defects (not guilt), we developed the defects of illness, decrepitude and death (and everything else in between) because, after they sinned, our original parents were unable to produce impeccable offspring.

Remember, the moment they ate of the forbidden fruit they began to die.

This is why Psalms 49:7,8 states, "None of [mankind] can ever redeem a brother. Or give to God a ransom for him, (The ransom price for their life is so precious that it is always beyond their reach)" - Psalms 49:7,8 (Bracket mine.)

In other words, no one could buy back, as it were, the perfection Adam and Eve forfeited for us. As such, all of mankind was destined to get sick, grow old and die forever - and rightly so! After all, we were born “defective.”

Now, Jehovah God could have avoided all this by simply making Adam and Eve’s death instantaneous. That way they would not have been able to bear children and the “contamination” would have been contained to them.

But, see, here’s where we begin to see the magnificence and breadth of Jehovah God’s love:

Ask yourself, had Jehovah God done so, would you or I (or anyone else for that matter) have come to exist? Not at all. Jehovah God would have simply started a new bloodline and an entirely different generation of human beings would have been born.

None of us would have ever existed ...

But that’s not even the most amazing part. The amazing part is that ... it didn’t matter! Not in the slightest!

As the Sovereign, Almighty Lord of the Universe, nothing and no one could frustrate his purposes. Jehovah God had intended for mankind to live eternally on Paradise Earth and that’s what was going to happen no matter what! (Genesis 1:27,28; 2:15)

So, instead of starting over, Jehovah chose, instead, to let matters run their course because, in the end, his original purpose for humanity would still be fulfilled regardless!

However, as it stood, we were doomed. Jehovah God understood this better than anyone and so he lovingly intervened making it possible for another perfect human being to be born and disposed to accept the value of his life as the corresponding ransom, or payment, for what Adam forfeited for us - perfect life.

Since only a perfect **human** life was needed Jehovah could have transferred the life of any of his spirit sons - or angels - into Mary's womb to be born as a perfect **human** being (Job 1:6; 38:7; Luke 3:38). That would have satisfied the legal requirement.

Instead he sent us his "only-begotten" son, Michael, who was given the name Jesus upon birth as a **perfect man**. (John 1:18; Matthew 1:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 9) But why? Why him?

Because Michael - Jesus in his **pre-human** existence - loved us very, very deeply. Proverbs 8:31 tells us that while he worked alongside Jehovah God in his creative acts as his master worker, he “was especially fond of the sons of men." Jesus loved us so much that he happily volunteered to give up his exalted position in heaven, be born a defenseless child and be brought up amongst flawed, imperfect human beings and then be tested to the limit, humiliated, insulted, mutilated and finally murdered all so that we can have the opportunity to be rescued from our slavery to sin and death and, instead, have everlasting life:

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life." - John 3:16,17,36


Thus, Jesus' ransom sacrifice came at extraordinary personal cost to Jehovah God himself. He looked on as he saw his son get insulted, humiliated, beaten, tortured then horrifically, painfully murdered. He looked on – and could do nothing.

For three days his son was dead. Gone …


Now, I don’t know if you have children or not but not even I as a father could not possibly even begin to imagine the heart rending agony Jehovah God felt. But why did Jehovah God allow himself to be put through all of this suffering? In Romans 5:8 he answers -

“God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Why did Jehovah God do it? Because he loves us.

And with that, the problem was solved. Christ offered up his perfect life - forever renouncing his humanity and all the generations of offspring he was rightly entitled to - so that we could have it instead.

Now THAT’S love!

How, then, can we show Jehovah God and Jesus our gratitude for all they've done – and continue to do – for us? By loving them, obeying them and loving one other -

Jesus taught, “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’”% - Matthew 22:37

%“You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.” - Deuteronomy 6:5

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” - 1 John 5:3



Jesus also taught, “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me." - John 14:23,24

“If you love me, you will observe my commandments. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him.” - John 14:15,21



"By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”" - John 13:35

“ If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar.” -1 John 4:20

“By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his life for us, and we are under obligation to surrender our lives for our brothers.” - 1 John 3:16



By doing so we can look forward to continue enjoying Jehovah God and Jesus' love - for all eternity.


#I know I went beyond what you asked and took you on several tangents but, the thing is, once I started writing ... I just couldn’t stop (Luke 4:18,19)

[Biep]

#I know I went beyond what you asked and took you on several tangents but, the thing is, once I started writing ... I just couldn’t stop (Luke 4:18,19)

No problem: thanks to computer technology, posts can always be edited - so you can still do the charitable thing and edit out the spam, moving it to a thread of your own if you want.  But something tells me you won't..

That’s the thing, though.  It’s not an issue of guilt.  God is not punishing us for something we did not do in the Garden of Eden.

So you disagree again with Jem, who appeals to "scales of justice" and the eye-for-an-eye rule, which are about punishment.  I wish she were here to defend her view.  I have little enough energy as it is, and having this thread expand into a whole spectrum of possible views of Jesus' sacrifice is not something I look forward to.

The value of Jesus' sacrifice must be large enough to cover everything it intends to repair, though.  You insist (without Biblical support as far as I know) He didn't die for Adam's sake - but I know He did for mine, so my infinite guilt must be covered - and yours, and hers, and his.
And then there is the buying free of the whole creation (Romans 8:18-23) which is in satan's hands.

The issue, rather, is one of inherited defect.

And that is a different aspect again.  Let's call the payment for that the docter's fee.  (Personally I disagree, I think the refiner's fire will do the cleansing, partly in this world, partly when our bodies are glorified (1 Corinthians 3:15), but let's agree for the sake of argument that this, too is paid from Jesus' sacrifice.)

So Jesus' ransom must cover at least:

Code: [Select]

Number of souls saved x ramson price of one soul
Redemption price for the whole of creation
Doctor's fee for Adam (plus for each of us?)That's the minimum worth of the sacrifice Jesus made, assuming it was effective (as we both believe).  We know that the whole of creation doesn't suffice to pay for one soul (Matthew 16:26).  If we take from Revelation that at least 144.000 people will be saved, then this makes for Jesus having a worth of at least 144.001 creations and then some.
Did I miss anything?

[Maxximiliann]

So you disagree again with Jem, who appeals to "scales of justice" and the eye-for-an-eye rule, which are about punishment.

These are also about equivalence. What was lost, perfect life, could only be redeemed in exchange of the same, perfect life.

As I shared with you earlier, Christ offered up his perfect life - forever renouncing his humanity and all the generations of offspring he was rightly entitled to - so that we could have it instead. (This is immensely significant since his murder was unjust and, consequently, had the right to be resurrected as a man (as was Lazarus, for instance) and even raise a family.)

[Maxximiliann]

You insist (without Biblical support as far as I know) He didn't die for Adam's sake.

Consider the following:

Bernie Madoff pillaged billions of dollars from his investors leaving them destitute (for the sake of illustration). A wealthy benefactor comes onto the scene and, moved by all their suffering, offers to repay what Madoff stole despite it costing him his fortune.

Now, would it be just for this benefactor to also restore Madoff's vast wealth back to him, in effect, rewarding him for his larceny?

[jayceeii]

If I understand Jem correctly, she claims that the Bible teaches that all Jesus had to pay was one single perfect physical human life, in exchange for the one Adam forfeited.
So far, as Biblical support, all she has given is the text "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7), to which I replied in this post.

Now if a Roman Catholic makes a claim that seems to go against the Biblical message, there often is an easy explanation: very broadly stated, the Bible is not their final authority; their magisterium is.  But the magisterium of the Jehovah's Witnesses, for all I know, claims that the Bible is to have the last word - which raises the question: where in the Bible is this doctrine taught?

Christians generally accept that Christ paid on the cross for our sins - and that includes Adam's sin, even though Adam himself already paid for his sin with his life.  The difference appears when the claim is made that one perfect human life is all payment that was needed to buy all of us free.

So, where in the Bible is that doctrine taught?

There are deep flaws in all this thinking, whether biblical verses can be dredged up in support of it or not. The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status. Men have always understood buying and selling, price and payment, yet there has been no attempt at metaphysical underpinning, no one has noticed the metaphysical underpinning to be missing, and it cannot be done since the metaphysical underpinning does not exist.

The other flaw is considering the Invisible God to be a bargainer, someone looking for a price. The depiction is cold and machine-like, as if God is looking for balances until His Son persuaded Him to show some compassion, for Christ’s sake. Instead Christ is the Face of the Invisible God, showing God’s compassion where no one can say what the Invisible God may be like. Yet compassion is useless, if faced by hatred and aggression.

In general the Invisible God is portrayed in Christianity as having the heart of a slave owner, as seen in this sentence, “The difference appears when the claim is made that one perfect human life is all payment that was needed to buy all of us free.” So far this has not “registered” on anyone’s mind as suspicious and probably wrong, and the Old Testament did portray the Invisible God this way. Maybe He is a tax collector, as well.

[Maxximiliann]

The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status.

Soul status? What does that even mean?

[jayceeii]

The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status.

Soul status? What does that even mean?

If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul. Nonetheless as you ask this question, it is evident you have not been thinking, “I have a soul,” or asking yourself, “What are my soul's properties?” These are questions your religion does not address, no one seeming to care about the soul. Since you have no ideation on the question, although it is your own soul at stake, you demand I fill in the blanks, as I shall attempt to do. In general for two thousand years Christians have applied economics to the question of salvation, asserting that there is a “cost” for sin, and saying that Jesus “paid the price for man's sin.” Such statements are utterly devoid of existential content or metaphysical underpinnings, about why we should accept cost structures in relation to the purity or elevation of spirit. The state of “sinfulness” is not defined metaphysically, nor its cure.

As a Christian you come talking about the price of salvation, and I’d counter that salvation cannot be bought. A major flaw is that you are treating the Invisible God like a store owner, a tax collector, or perhaps some kind of karmic machine, meting out punishments for crimes until a “balance” is achieved. This karmic machine was going to keep operating mindlessly, you insist, until the Son agreed to sacrifice Himself, after which all debts are regarded to be cancelled. Your theory about how the soul is purified is indeed a karmic one, that once the punishments are meted, the soul is restored to a state of health. But you add that mankind deserved eternal punishment, from which Jesus gave relief. You are left with the proposition that the Invisible God intends to wave a magic wand, granting the souls purity that otherwise eternal punishment would have provided.

So as a Christian it is upon you to demonstrate the metaphysics underlying your proposition that Jesus has “paid the debt for sins.” First explain the process of incurring a debt, in spiritual terms (soul status). Next explain how the usual mode of punishment restores health to a soul (paying the debt). Finally explain the special dispensation you expect to be granted by the Invisible God, bypassing the usual route of punishment. If you can’t explain these things, you are left proposing that the Christians can enter Heaven with their sin intact. That is to say, you’d be proposing man can remain in a fallen state, in Heaven. If you accept even this, you are saying Heaven will be filled with quarrels, war, jealousy, hatred and crime. Or, are these not a consequence of sinfulness?

[Maxximiliann]

The major flaw is in applying economic theory to soul status.

Soul status? What does that even mean?

If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.

[jayceeii]

If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.

The reason to say “have,” is that although you are a created soul, this is in your depths and you have not seen it! If you have seen your soul, please list its properties and powers. Further, please list the marks of the soul proving it was made by God. This should be rather straightforward for you, if you are a cognoscente, but if you had seen the soul you would not need to engage in theology. You’d know God must exist, from self-knowledge.

You are correct that you are a soul, but are you truly motivated for its salvation? When the soul is seen and it has sufficient bliss, a dreadful angst enters that makes the approach of a true authority, such as Jesus, refreshing like water to a man near dying in a desert. From failure to perceive the soul, men are wrongfully proud, thinking their body to be a secure platform, and this is the source of the persecution of the saints, who must be silent.

[Maxximiliann]

If you are a Christian, you believe that you have a created soul.

You appear to be misinformed. All Christians believe as per Genesis 2:7-

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So, you see, we don't have a soul but are a soul.

The reason to say “have,” is that although you are a created soul, this is in your depths and you have not seen it! If you have seen your soul, please list its properties and powers.

Since I literally am a soul I see it every single time I look in a mirror.

Further, please list the marks of the soul proving it was made by God.

If exceptional intellect is required to merely duplicate the breathtakingly daedal designs and systems present in nature then much more the original being replicated. In this way, Creation itself is probative of our Creator's necessary existence.

As Romans 1:20 explicates: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward because they are perceived by the things made.” So indisputable is this proof for a wise Creator that the Scriptures simply point out: “The senseless one has said in his heart: ‘There is no Jehovah.’”— Psalms 14:1

You are correct that you are a soul, but are you truly motivated for its salvation?

Why wouldn't I be? I like being alive