gleaner63 wrote: Hi EGreg,
You asked some interesting questions and I'd like to attempt to answer just a portion of one of them. I have an undergraduate degree in history and so I think I can shed some light on the issue of historical claims and if, in fact, they are open to "ultimate proof". In my opinion, they are not.
In your reference to the alledged historical events of the OT, including that of a universal, or local flood, even if we had geological proof of such an event, it would not convice the ardent atheist. Why? They would simply have a fallback position and say somehting like this; "...floods...*any* flood, is a *natural* event, and so does not require divine intervention. So even IF there was a universal flood, that would in no way prove that a diety was invovlved or that said diety actually exists...". And, I think they would be right.
I once talked with an atheist and asked that if Noah's Ark was discovered, would he then become a believer? His response was "no, all you would have discovered was a boat. Period."
Let's look at another widely disputed event from the OT, that of the Exodus. The lack of evidence for this event, especially in the Egyptian records, leads many to say it didn't happen. But even if it could be proven, the "fall back" position for the atheist would be "...so what? Does the migration of hundreds of thousands of slaves require a diety?".
The "unbelief" of the average atheist is not really about evidence at all, it's really about a built in bias, one that they want to protect at all costs. I have had these conversations with atheists all to many times to believe that the verification of the historical events of the OT would make *any* difference at all. If you don't believe me, just go to any atheist blog and pose the question. The Red Sea may have parted, but surely it wasn't GOd that did it. That would be a typical aresponse.
Let me use two modern examples that will help illustrate this. Show a skeptic a flight log by a military pilot that he visually spotted and chased a UFO. The invariable first query will always be "...did they pick the UFO up on radar...?". If you respond no, they will retort, "...see, if it was a solid, mechanical object, they would have picked it up on their radar...". Now, when you point out a similar case, of a pilot who made a vivual ID and painted the target on radar, the response then becomes "...radar is unreliable...". Tell them the UFO was "painted" by *five* seperate radar systems, including gound and air. The response now becomes "...so what...". But do you see what is happening here?
I asked an atheist on another blog what proof he required for the ressurection and he said "...a time machine...". Another said he would "...have to see it with his own eyes...". Another said "...when God comes down from heaven and introduces himself to me then I will believe he exists...".
No proof will be enough for the hardcore atheist....and *they* know this, they just refuse to admit it.
I think this highlights a real problem for the Apologist.
1. This is kind of a Red Herring. The basic question is "is there evidence for a global flood?".
Gleaner doesn't answer (there isn't), but tries to show that even if there was (there isn't) it wouldn't convince the atheist.
That's true. But how does that help the apologists argument?
For example, if there was evidence for the global flood, the apologist could at least say that the Bible doesn't contradict the facts, but gleaner can't offer this - because no global flood ever happened.
2. gleaner is saying the evidence that is in the Bible isn't even good enough to convince someone that it is true (it isn't), AND, in fact, there is no evidence that it is true (it isn't).
Yet, the apologist wants to convince the atheist that they have a reason to believe the Bible is true?
It's like saying:
I was born on the moon in 1767.
There is no evidence that I was, but you wouldn't believe me even if I found some evidence. So, the fact that there is no evidence, and no contradictory evidence, then it makes sense to believe me.
So, gleaner, and other apologists, are saying "sure, the evidence is contrary to the claim, but even if we had that evidence, it wouldn't be good evidence."
That's right, the apologist doesn't even have BAD evidence that the Bible is trustworthy.