belorg wrote:
Which proves my point.
Christians believe that Heaven is a perfect place, or, at least, a place where they long to be.
So God can create a perfect place for humans (or human souls) where they have free will and do not desire sinful things and where, as a result, evil does not exist.
Or God can create a perfect place for humans (or human souls) do not have free will and do not desire sinful things and where, as a result, evil does not exist.
In both cases, there is no need for 'a sufficnient moral reason to allow evil' and the FWD fails.
It didn't prove your point; you missed the point. We are humans desiring sinful things, that is what we are. In other words, that is our nature: sinful human nature. When the believers go to Heaven their faith in God is rewarded, in part, by resurrection bodies. As we both admitted to previously, we do not know how this causes us not to lose the desire sin, but the believer's nature is changed to (according to Christian theology, of course) so that this is no longer a problem.
What you are trying, I think, to get at is if God could change people's natures then why He can't just do that now and there would be no reason for sin, evil, etc. But God doesn't just change people's natures, He doesn't just change who people are. He only changes those that want to be with Him and try to faithfully follow Him. If He just changed ever person He would be violating people's free will which would be evil itself and God cannot do that.
I do not know whether lots of ahtheists say those things, unless by "garbage" they mean "a very weak argument", in which case they will probably also say the same about the KCA, the OA, the resurrection argument etc.
One reason why they might be more inclined to use it against the FWD could be that it's one of the most popular defenses in theism, in the non-academic world, that is. How often don't we hear the "God does not want robots" mantra? Sometimes this can get quite annoying, hence, perhaps this reaction.
Heh, there are certainly a lot of things that can get quite annoying! I am sure we would both agree to this. I dispute your claim that it is a popular layman defense but not something popular in the academic world. Hasn't Plantinga done a ton of work on this? Also, I know I have heard WLC use it/discuss it.
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I think part of the problem here is that I am failing to communicate what I really want to say. Perhaps I should just spend some time and find some of the quotes I was talking about and share that. Then maybe you would see my point.
Of course people could just say, "don't give me ____ garbage" and by saying that they are implying that it is a weak argument/cliche/boring/rebutted/whatever else. But, that doesn't mean there are not counter-rebuttals or other things.
This thread isn't really supposed to be about whether the FWD is a good defense or even good philosophy. It is just about the narrow claim "Don't give me the FWD garbage." I want to know what that means and why a lot of ahtheists say it; I do not hear it being said regarding other arguments/theological points. This leads me to believe there is some non-philosophical reason for the claim "Don't give me the FWD garbage."
Btw, am I making myself clear at all? I hope I am not babbling to you
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