The Trinity doctrine & Greek philosophy

[Phil Hadley]

Hello,
I am a Christian trying to explore the doctrine of the trinity and I have a question which I would like to ask you please.  I do not have any philosophical or theological training.  I am just a thinker looking for answers.  I would be very grateful if you would have time to read my thoughts below and offer a response please.  If you think I am way off track, please say so and be as frank as you like.  Thank you very much in advance.  Looking forward to hearing from you.
Masih

The NT writers were not imbued with Aristotelian philosophy and didn't analyse things in terms of substance or ontology.  Instead they thought about things in terms of function - for example, they thought of God as creator, sustainer, ruler, judge, etc. but didn't speculate about his abstract qualities such as the inner structure of His being or personality.  Thus if one of the NT writers had been asked "Is Jesus God?", he probably would not have understood the question.  To his mind it would have sounded as bizarre as it would do to a modern western person being asked "What does the colour red smell like?"  This explains why the NT never attempted to define God in the same terms as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Definition.  The NT authors simply never asked themselves the sorts of questions the Nicene Creed attempted to answer.  The theologians who formulated the Nicene Creed were deeply influenced by Aristotelian philosophy and so their minds naturally probed into the ontological relationship between God & Jesus, whereas the NT writers thought more about the functional relationship between God & Jesus (Sender/'Sent One', Commissioner/Messiah, Father/Son, etc.)  The 4th century theologians who formulated the doctrine of the trinity made accurate inferences from the biblical data, but the doctrine of the trinity is not necessarily the best or ultimate definition of God - it is only one among several equally valid lenses through which God may be viewed, depending on the way your mind works.

For background, this thought is in repsonse to a question posed by a biblical unitarian in a dbate about the trinity.  He asked: Assuming the doctrine of the trinity is true and central to the Christian religion and that Jesus and his apostles believed it, why do you think they “held back” from teaching it to us in a clear/straightfoward/explicit way, as they did so many other doctrines they believed to be important?
Examples of clear/straightforward/explicit teachings: God is one; God is holy; God is light; God is love; YHWH is God’s name; God created heaven and earth; Jesus died for our sins; God raised Jesus from the dead; Jesus sits at the right hand of God; Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and Son of God; the greatest commandments are Love God and Love neighbor.
What I mean is, do you ever wonder why in 1 Cor.8:6 Paul didn’t say something like, “To us there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons, one essence.” If that is what Paul believed (and wanted us to believe), why do you think he said something different? Why did he speak of the Lord Jesus in this text as someone other than (or distinct from) the “one God”?
Or how about… “You have heard it was said, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one', but I say to you, Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one being yet three persons”?
Don't you find it surprising/odd (on any level) that the alleged “central” doctrine of Christianity was not plainly and continuously taught by its founder (Jesus) or the apostles?

[John Goddard]

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know  the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

But Jesus told us to seek, and then you can find that there is no God for us without all 3 persons of God together:

• There is no Jesus without Father, John 8:54.
•         There is no Father without Jesus, John 14:6.
•         There is no Jesus or Father without Spirit, John 3:5.
•         There is no Spirit without Jesus or Father, John 15:26.

[Keith Fedrick]

Yeah. I don't believe that the bible contradicts itself, and I think the doctrine of the Trinity is very obvious throughout the NT, and there are even hints of it in the OT. Before you ponder any objections to the doctrine of the Trinity, consider this scripture...

Phil 2:5-9

⁵Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
⁶Who, being in very nature^[a] God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
⁷but made himself nothing,
     taking the very nature^[b] of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
⁸And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     and became obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
⁹Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name...

Think about what is being said here. Look at verse 7. If Jesus is not God, then he is obviously a creation of God, made to serve and worship God just like the rest of God's creation. But in verse 7 it clearly states that he "made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant". So my question is, if Jesus was eternally subordinate to God, why did he have to "make himself nothing", and take the very nature of a servant? Since he had to take the nature of a servant, that would mean that there was a point in time to where he wasn't a servant. So what was he before he took the  nature of a servant....verse 6 answers that question...he was God.

Based on the bible itself, Jesus was eternally God along with the Father..but when it came time to redeem mankind, Jesus had to lower himself, his position, and become subject to the Father to accomplish the divine will of redeeming mankind. That is why throughout the gospels you see Jesus speak as if he was the subordinate to God, but that is only AFTER he emptied himself and took the form of a servant.

Jesus is to be distinct from the Father, but they are both the same God. They both have the same nature. And so does the Holy Spirit. And once you read the bible, the doctrine will start screaming out at you, just like it did for me.

[Sunil Mall]

what are some good books in defense of the trinity? or which good christian philosophers are known for their defense of the trinity?

..spanks

[Robert Harris]

Majesty that is one of the most awesome explanations of Phil 2:5-9. I have used it many many times myself but not how you just used it.

PTL!

[hopeinul]

Majesty, verse 6 does not say that Jesus is God but rather he has the nature of God. It is talking about his nature not his identity. As you said, Jesus was not servant form the beginning but he was the Son of God from the beginning because God the Father said this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. Since he is the Son of God he has the same nature as God the Father. Just as a human son has the nature of his father. Jesus was not created but begotten.

[Timothy Campen]

hopeinul wrote: Majesty, verse 6 does not say that Jesus is God but rather he has the nature of God. It is talking about his nature not his identity. As you said, Jesus was not servant form the beginning but he was the Son of God from the beginning because God the Father said this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. Since he is the Son of God he has the same nature as God the Father. Just as a human son has the nature of his father. Jesus was not created but begotten.

From Dictionary.com:

be·get

   /bɪˈgɛt/ Show Spelled[bih-get] Show IPA

–verb (used with object), be·got or ( Archaic ) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.

1.

(esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).

2.

to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

From Webster's:

   =2>

Definition of BEGET

transitive verb

1

: to procreate as the father : sire

2

: to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

So when you say "Jesus was not created but begotten," what exactly do you mean?  Because it sure does sound like the same thing per the definition of the word "begotten".

[Robert Harris]

http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=First-Begotten That is a good explanation of firstborn or begotten

http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3439 and http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html  for some understanding of the greek word and the latter is also an explanation of what is meant.

tcampen: It does seem like hopeinul is saying Jesus is not God based on what he said there.

Jesus certainly was not a created being according to Christian teaching. John 1:3 states, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." and Colossians 1:16-17 states, "For in him all things  were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,  whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been  created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

[hopeinul]

The bible says their is only one God the Father (1Co 8:6, Joh 17:3 etc) and this God has one and only Son, Jesus Christ, who as a son has the nature of his Father (Joh 1:3, Joh 1:14). He he different from creation because he is the Son of God and because by him all things were created. He is the only Son of his Father to whom he is subjected to (1Co 15:28) and who is greater than himself (Joh 14:28).
Nowhere the scripture says their is one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But that there is one God, the Father who has one Son, Jesus Christ, and a spirit called the Holy Spirit. I really don't understand why this is hard to understand and fabricate a doctrine of trinity.
God only had one Son but he send his only Son to have many sons. we were simply creature of God but by the work of the Son of God and the Holy Spirit we now have become the sons of God that is the Father. So now God has many sons.
The bible is coherent and clear about the relations of the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the holy Spirit the Spirit of God.
This is what the apostles believed that there is only one God, the Father, from whom the Son of God and the Holy Spirit came.

[Robert Harris]

hopeinul wrote: The bible says their is only one God the Father (1Co 8:6, Joh 17:3 etc) and this God has one and only Son, Jesus Christ, who as a son has the nature of his Father (Joh 1:3, Joh 1:14). He he different from creation because he is the Son of God and because by him all things were created. He is the only Son of his Father to whom he is subjected to (1Co 15:28) and who is greater than himself (Joh 14:28).
Nowhere the scripture says their is one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But that there is one God, the Father who has one Son, Jesus Christ, and a spirit called the Holy Spirit. I really don't understand why this is hard to understand and fabricate a doctrine of trinity.
God only had one Son but he send his only Son to have many sons. we were simply creature of God but by the work of the Son of God and the Holy Spirit we now have become the sons of God that is the Father. So now God has many sons.
The bible is coherent and clear about the relations of the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the holy Spirit the Spirit of God.
This is what the apostles believed that there is only one God, the Father, from whom the Son of God and the Holy Spirit came.

The Holy Spirit is considered a person in the NT and is not created.
Jesus is obviously a person in the NT and is not created.
The Father is a person in the NT and is not created.
There is one God.

The best conclusion that considers all the Biblical evidence is the Trinity doctrine. I do not know what you are advocating. I think you are missing the point of Majesty's post. If Jesus lowered himself becoming a servant then it means at one time he was not a servant...

[hopeinul]

I did not miss Majesty's point.
When the bible says that God is one it means that the Father is one because1Co 8:6 says that there is one God the Father, and Eph 4:6 says that their is one God and Father of all. Do you think the bible is mistaken when it says that the Father is the Only true God (Joh 17:3). Ever creature should acknowledge that the Father is the only true God as Jesus acknowledged.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God and three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but the Bible says repeatedly there is one God the Father (one person).
Our Lord Jesus is Son of Our God and Father. The blessed Holy Spirit who dwells in us is the Spirit of our God and Father. This is very different from saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God himself. Nowhere the bible says explicitly that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible says that Jesus has the nature of God ( Jon 1:1, Phil 2:6) but his identity is repeatedly confirmed as the Son of God, the Word of God, the Power and Wisdom of God, the exact image of God ...
So there is only one God and that is the Father.
There is one Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
There is one Spirit, the spirit of God
Eph 4:4-6
why is this difficult to accept? I think because we have accepted the doctrine of trinity as true without first questioning it.  

[Robert Harris]

hopeinul wrote: I did not miss Majesty's point.
When the bible says that God is one it means that the Father is one because1Co 8:6 says that there is one God the Father, and Eph 4:6 says that their is one God and Father of all. Do you think the bible is mistaken when it says that the Father is the Only true God (Joh 17:3). Ever creature should acknowledge that the Father is the only true God as Jesus acknowledged.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God and three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but the Bible says repeatedly there is one God the Father (one person).
Our Lord Jesus is Son of Our God and Father. The blessed Holy Spirit who dwells in us is the Spirit of our God and Father. This is very different from saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God himself. Nowhere the bible says explicitly that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible says that Jesus has the nature of God ( Jon 1:1, Phil 2:6) but his identity is repeatedly confirmed as the Son of God, the Word of God, the Power and Wisdom of God, the exact image of God ...
So there is only one God and that is the Father.
There is one Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
There is one Spirit, the spirit of God
Eph 4:4-6
why is this difficult to accept? I think because we have accepted the doctrine of trinity as true without first questioning it.  

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:3 Through him all things wee made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jesus is the Word, is God, and through Jesus all things were created.


John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Why didn't Jesus rebuke him for calling him God?

Who created all things?
Isaiah 44:24 "...I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens who spread out the earth by myself"
Is the bible contradicting itself when it says that through Jesus all things were made and then in Isaiah says that God created it all by himself? Of course not. The NT reveals that Jesus is God!

Who is the first and the last?
Isaiah 44:6 "...I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
Revelations 1:17-18 [Jesus speaking] "..."Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
Ah, so do we have another contradiction? Of course not! This is just the bible telling us Jesus is God!

Should we bow to another God or god?
Exodus 34:14 don't prostrate before another god.
Philippians 2:10 at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth

I could go on and on and on. If anyone has accepted something without questioning it I think it is you and your false view of God. What do you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit are anyway?

Dr. Craig has a lot of resources on the Trinity as well. I pray that you will look over them and look closer into the doctrine of the Trinity.

John 14:7 says if you know Jesus you know the Father. In John 15 Jesus states that if you do not remain in him you will be cut off thrown away and wither and these branches are thrown into the fire.

[hopeinul]

First of all I do not have a false view of God.
The bible says that God created every thing through Jesus Christ. (Heb 1:2)  "...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds". So you see my friend it was God working trough his Son. When the bible says every thing is created in Christ, it is saying that the Father created every thing through his Son. The bible says that the Son can do nothing on his own but only what the Father does through him. (Joh 5:19)  Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
Not only did God created everything through his Son but he is also saving the world through his Son. (Joh 3:16)  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
You are just pointing to some characters of a divine nature to prove that Jesus is God. But as I have said previously since Jesus is the Son of God he has the nature of God or he is the exact image of the one true God. (Heb 1:3) " who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person." So what God is the word is because he is the express image of God. We are also called to share in the divine nature of God, (2Pe 1:4) " ... that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature...".
I don't have any false view of God. But I think you do. You are worshiping a God called the Trinity, an invention of the mind. But Jesus said that, (Joh 4:23)  "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him". We worship Jesus as the Son of God. If you accept, believe or worship Jesus you are actually doing that to the Father who sent him. (Joh 12:44)  Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
We worship the God the Father through Jesus Christ by the help of the Holy Spirit.
As for your question who is Jesus, he is the son of the living God ((Mat 16:16)  Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.")
As for the Holy Spirit it is the Spirit of the Living God which is given as a gift for those who believed in Jesus.
May God help us to know him well.
And I have looked into the material that you suggested, but it is sad to see such an intellectual to repeat these old fable. But of course the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God and not by intellect. (1Co 2:11)... Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:12)  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

[Robert Harris]

Ok so when Jesus takes the names of God, the attributes of God, does things that only God can do, Jesus isn't claiming to be God but just some lesser god? Your view makes absolutely no biblical sense whatsoever.

Jesus & the Holy Spirit are not created beings, are eternal, do only the things God can do.

I am sure you are aware that you did not answer any of my biblical data. See, you do not know Jesus therefore you do not know the Father. In other words, you do not know God.

Until you can show some biblical support for your view that Jesus is not God then there is nothing more for me to say here. Honestly, if you just research a little more you will come to a real understanding. Set aside your biases (like I had to, and everyone else) and just be lead by the Spirit.

[hopeinul]

 

Amen let us all be lead by the Spirit of God.
My view makes 100% biblical view but 0% Trinitarian views.
My view is , as well as the bible says, there is one God the Father.
Jesus calls the Father the only true God.
Like us Jesus is not a creation of God but the Son of God form the beginning. Since he is the Son of God he has the attributes of God.

 

Jesus is the only begotten God (Joh 1:18 NASB)  “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

 

The Father is God by identity but Jesus is God by nature which he gets from him Father as a begotten God “on Joh 17:5 Jesus says “ And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” And he later explains where he gets his glory from in Joh 17:2 “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:” Even before the foundation of the world the Glory Jesus had was given him by His Father

 

The scripture repeatedly says God the Father because that is who the Father is. That is the Father is God by Identity. But nowhere does the scripture say God the Son (only the Trinitarians do) because Jesus is not by identity God but by nature. But he is by identity the Son of God that is why when you read the scriptures Jesus is often called the Son of God. But Jesus has the nature of God and shares all attributes of God.
The Father is greater than Jesus. Even Jesus has said that the Father is greater than Me. (Joh 14:28 NKJV)  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, [84] 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

 

 

The Father is greater than the Son:

 

1. Before the incarnation

 

• (Joh 1:18)  "No one has seen God at any time.      The only begotten Son, [6] who is in the bosom of the Father, He      has declared Him." Someone in the bosom must be less than someone who      has the bosom. Bosom shows care. So Jesus was in the care of his Father      before the incarnation.

   

• (Joh 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word      was with God, and the Word was God." John is describing who      Jesus is so that we would know that he is not just a mere man. One way of      identification of Jesus is that he was with God. If Jesus is equal with      God what is the point of saying that he was with God. If someone gets      respect or glory because he was with someone else, it shows that the later      person is greater than the former. But if both are equal then saying that      someone was with someone would be just providing information. But John      wasn't just giving information but rather giving glory to Jesus by saying      that he was with God in the beginning, and we should respect Jesus more      because he was with God.
• (Php 2:6)  Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The Greek word translated equality can also mean like. Here the writer is saying that Jesus can live just as God is living because he is by nature God. But the writer compares Jesus with someone called God. Why is this other God used as a reference? Why would Jesus grasp to be equal with God if he is equal with God? This is yet another indication that Jesus has the nature of God and he can live as God himself. But also that Jesus can give up his divine nature to have a humane nature for our sake. Identity cannot be given up but nature can be. Jesus did not give up his identity which is the Son of God or the Word (Logos) but his divine nature. So the Word (identity) was God (nature) and the Word (identity) became flesh (nature).

 

• ·       (Joh 16:28)  I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the worl
     d and go to the Father." This shows that Jesus did not come from himself or on his own authority. He has a source and that is the Father not a triune God.

 

2.  Obviously while he was on earth.
3. After his resurrection

 

·     (Joh 20:17)  Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

 

Jesus calls The Father My God after his resurrection showing that the Father is greater that himself. If Jesus was equal with the Father why would he call him My God? The answer is he wouldn’t.

 

4.      At the end of everything

 

·     (1Co 15:28)  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

So my friend stop worshiping a triune God (invention of the mind which is an idol) and worship the Father the only true God trough Jesus Christ our Lord by the help of the Holy Spirit.