Hell

[Troy Brooks]

Craig wrote: Good response Parture. You brought out what seems to be most of the key facts in the Ressurrection apology in Christianity. Have you read Habermas' minimal facts approach? It is quite brilliant!

That's where I got the 12 points from. Habermas is my favorite scholar. From what I understand, Gary is going to be publishing quotes from most skeptical scholars about these 12 items from nearly the last half century. Over 95% of skeptical scholars believe the disciples truly believe they saw Jesus resurrected. Though they have no natural explanation that fits the data.

How many resurrection appearances do you count Craig? I count 13. I was trying to think how to lead Antony Flew to Christ now that he is convinced like Stephen Hawkings that there must be a God. What do you think?

[Craig]

Stephen Hawking is a theist now? Or a deist like Flew?

I thought he was agnostic.

[Troy Brooks]

Craig wrote: Stephen Hawking is a theist now? Or a deist like Flew?

I thought he was agnostic.

I took his quote he is a deist, not agnostic.

These prominent scientists and scholars can't deny the evidence.

Theoretical Physicist, Stephen Hawkings said, "It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way except the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."

Dr. Paul Davies (Professor of Natural Philosophy) has moved from atheism to conceding that, "The laws of physics seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design." There are over 800 variables making life on another planet in the universe impossible. And he said, "[There] is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the universe. The impression of design is overwhelming."

Professor of Astronomy, George Greenstein said, "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency--or rather Agency--must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

Dr. Arnold Penzias, 1978 Nobel Prize winner in Physics, said, "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing...one with a very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."  

And in just a few hours on the cross on our planet in our solar system in our galaxy among 200 billion galaxies in the universe, Jesus died for our sins to give us eternal life whosoever is willing to receive it.

[Bill Clute]

Parture-

Do you have a source/reference for the Hawkings quote?  I'd like to use it in some Sunday School classes I teach but I like to have references to back up the quotes.

[Troy Brooks]

billclute wrote: Do you have a source/reference for the Hawkings quote?  I'd like to use it in some Sunday School classes I teach but I like to have references to back up the quotes.

Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127

[Joshua Theobald]

I think the level of self induced delusion has reached a level at which all logic and reason has left this forum.  While I don't mind a debate, one based upon grounds such as yours Parture fail more profoundly the more you post.  Such a climate leads to a poor discussion.  Good luck with your thread.

[Troy Brooks]

janalex1903 wrote: I think the level of self induced delusion has reached a level at which all logic and reason has left this forum.  While I don't mind a debate, one based upon grounds such as yours Parture fail more profoundly the more you post.  Such a climate leads to a poor discussion.  Good luck with your thread.

Then why can't you show it? Perhaps your are knowingly projecting your own condition.

Delusion would be to believe something contrary to the evidence, such as:

• meaninglessly thinking the universe always existed or it just happened all by itself, violating the law of cause and effect and exponential progression of conscience;
• despite almost all skeptical scholars saying the disciples were being genuine, the disciples lied and they would go to their deaths as martyrs telling a lie. Pray tell, who does that?;
• even though this is as strong a legal case as you can muster in a court room, there is somehow some way some unknown as yet undiscoverd natural explanation after almost 2000 years for the bodily resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ;
• you can do anything you like, even the most heinous crimes, without any more consequence than your physical, soulical and spiritual death in this life and just cease to exist. So you hope! But this is contrary to what you intuitively know and what your conscience is telling you that no sin goes unpunished, for sin leads to death and the second death, an eternal separation from God; unless, you receive the reconciliation God provides through His only begotten Son who paid for the sins of the whole world, including yours.

A reasonable person would conclude you are going to Hell for calling Jesus a liar or whatever other excuse you will try for. How you respond to Him in this life determines how you live out in eternity.

Why not give in to the truth, where the evidence leads you, if you don't know how to fight it anymore other than to not think about it or not respond to it? Amen.

[Bill Clute]

Parture-

Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127

Thanks but I don't see that quote on page 127 of "A Brief History of Time".  Could you double check your source?

[Joshua Theobald]

In this forum I never argued there was no god.  What I am arguing is that your so called god does not possess a nature of goodness from the perspective of humanity as a whole.
    What that means is that god can play favorites and can command people to kill women children, ask for human sacrifices, allow the sons of god to bed the daughter of humanity, or any other thing we might consider heinous to us.  Essentially its his ball and he can choose to do with it what he wants.
    From a human perspective, he does not care about everyone, and the atrocities done in gods name abound everywhere.

Now lets get on to your points.

meaninglessly thinking the universe always existed or it just happened all by itself, violating the law of cause and effect and exponential progression of conscience;

 Not all Atheist follow the same thought processes.  First and foremost thinking the universe always existed or that it was made by and uncaused cause is the same thing as saying that god always existed and he created the universe.  All of these concepts violate causality.  The fact the decision by whomever to imagine a being and a non-place/non-time is a poor way to force this into logic.  At the point someone decides to do this, any imaginary concept becomes viable so long as it maintains self consistency.    Hence the reason most Christians including WLC miss the point of the spaghetti monster argument.  It is a poorly constructed argument but the thought behind it, I find valid.

 

despite almost all skeptical scholars saying the disciples were being genuine, the disciples lied and they would go to their deaths as martyrs telling a lie. Pray tell, who does that?;

 People do this all the time.  I don't think the disciples thought what they were doing was a lie at all, but delusion and a charismatic leader have lead many people to their deaths.  We can start as far back as Joan of arc, the civil war, Mayans, Incas, leaders of any of the World wars.  We could get specific and talk about Waco, or Jones town.  Pick your poison.

even though this is as strong a legal case as you can muster in a court room, there is somehow some way some unknown as yet undiscovered natural explanation after almost 2000 years for the bodily resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ;

Whatever...this doesn't even merit discussion.  Should we entertain the quest for Atlantis or the lochness monster?  What about UFO's?  Seriously move on to a more viable topic.

you can do anything you like, even the most heinous crimes, without any more consequence than your physical, soulical and spiritual death in this life and just cease to exist. So you hope! But this is contrary to what you intuitively know and what your conscience is telling you that no sin goes unpunished, for sin leads to death and the second death, an eternal separation from God; unless, you receive the reconciliation God provides through His only begotten Son who paid for the sins of the whole world, including yours.

  Can and should are 2 very distinct things,  why would i believe that harming other people will bring me joy?  Nothing leads to instability more so than violating other people... I'm glad you think atheists are amoral destroyers of humanity....We are not, we just see things differently than you.  Yes I've heard all the preaching for the past 30 years, you reminding really isn't impressive nor does it scare me.  I will end up where I end up, god already knows that and you nor I will ever have any effect upon changing my predestination.  I spent 16 years in Christianity in every possible type of church looking for god, praying, asking for his forgiveness.  It all fell on deaf ears or maybe it was pointless to begin with.  Either way I could see the charade going on and the lack of response was a quiet deafness.  If there was a god who wanted to save some, he does not want me.  If the bible is even remotely true someone must have been created to fill, Cain or Lamech shoes for this time, maybe that is my function.

 

A reasonable person would conclude you are going to Hell for calling Jesus a liar or whatever other excuse you will try for. How you respond to Him in this life determines how you live out in eternity.
Why not give in to the truth, where the evidence leads you, if you don't know how to fight it anymore other than to not think about it or not respond to it? Amen.

Sorry I'm not one to go quietly in the night, but do not suppose that everyone was created for the purpose of have a choice between heaven and hell.  To think that if god exists, and I can force my will over gods, is foolish, but when you lack any alternative you must turn and head into doing the impossible even if that means you will fail.

[Troy Brooks]

billclute wrote: Parture-

Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time', p.127

Thanks but I don't see that quote on page 127 of "A Brief History of Time".  Could you double check your source?

Scores and scores of websites confirm it is on page 127 of 'A Brief History of Time', and people have lots to say about it. Maybe you have another version but it is definitely in 'A Brief History of Time', in Chapter 8, 'The Origin and Fate of the Universe'.

It's kind of funny because Hawkings is suggesting an uncreated Creator simply using a God of Gaps theory, when most Christian apologists don't use this theory. Just because there is a gap in the data is no reason to suppose God exists. Though I am sure many use this approach it is not one I subscribe to nor should Hawkings. It's like saying, just because Hawkings is not smart enough therefore God must exist. That's illogical for the determining factor then becomes Stephen and not God's proof of Himself such as the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself, but always has a cause, so the universe must have a cause and can't cause itself, logically speaking.

[Troy Brooks]

janalex1903 wrote:      In this forum I never argued there was no god.  What I am arguing is that your so called god does not possess a nature of goodness from the perspective of humanity as a whole.
    What that means is that god can play favorites and can command people to kill women children, ask for human sacrifices, allow the sons of god to bed the daughter of humanity, or any other thing we might consider heinous to us.  Essentially its his ball and he can choose to do with it what he wants.
    From a human perspective, he does not care about everyone, and the atrocities done in gods name abound everywhere.

So are you saying you believe there is an Intelligent Designer? Or are you saying you don't know or possibly could be?

Since God has always shown Himself to be righteous and holy, any bearing false witness against Him can't change that from a sinner accusing Him. That by the way violates Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God.

The burden of the proof falls on you since you make various accusations. Just saying so doesn't make it so. Think of this as a court of law and you are trying to make your case. So far, your case would be thrown out because you have no evidence for your accusations.

 Not all Atheist follow the same thought processes.  First and foremost thinking the universe always existed or that it was made by and uncaused cause is the same thing as saying that god always existed and he created the universe.  All of these concepts violate causality.  The fact the decision by whomever to imagine a being and a non-place/non-time is a poor way to force this into logic.  At the point someone decides to do this, any imaginary concept becomes viable so long as it maintains self consistency.    Hence the reason most Christians including WLC miss the point of the spaghetti monster argument.  It is a poorly constructed argument but the thought behind it, I find valid.

Thinking the universe always existed is not the same thing as saying God always existed, because God is not the universe. The only thing that violates causality is saying the universe can happen all by itself when in nature we see cause and effect. Being purely logical, if the universe can't cause itself, there is only one possibility, which is, there must be an uncaused cause Who intelligently designed. Any other idea proves to be just fantasy to get around this fact. Your monster argument fails because we know spaghetti is a natural product, part of nature. Monster's are evil, but the Designer who is always existing would be holy. And the act of flying is part of nature, which itself has a cause. Your argument is destroyed by showing your monster, part of your fantasy life, has a cause which so happens to be your hostility to God.

People do this all the time.  I don't think the disciples thought what they were doing was a lie at all, but delusion and a charismatic leader have lead many people to their deaths.  We can start as far back as Joan of arc, the civil war, Mayans, Incas, leaders of any of the World wars.  We could get specific and talk about Waco, or Jones town.  Pick your poison.

I am glad you admit at the very least they truly believed in what they were doing, but do you also agree they truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected and that is why they set up the churches?

Where do multipe groups in multiple settings under multiple conditions claim they saw the same person physically resurrected who they know died? People have individual hallucinations, but nothing in modern psychology can be found for cases of many same group hallucinations (13 groups in the Bible over 40 days), let alone even one group hallucinations.

So if the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected and you can't find a natural explanation, let that be the proof Jesus is God.

Whatever...this doesn't even merit discussion.  Should we entertain the quest for Atlantis or the lochness monster?  What about UFO's?  Seriously move on to a more viable topic.

Why leave anything off the table? Why shut your mind down? You want to move on but the very proof of God is in the eyewitness accounts of the resurrected Jesus whom they could touch and talk, the very person they spent three years with in His ministry. My point is this, Christianity is making a claim and proves it by His resurrection, but if you can't find fault with it, then you can't find fault with Christianity on this basis. Furthermore, this claim is different than Atlantis, lochness monster and UFO's, since you have to provide the documentation of claims of seeing them like Christianity does for the resurrection of Jesus. And as for the lochness monster and UFO's these are things seen at a distance so they can easily be explained by natural phenomena. There would need to be archaeological evidence for the city of Atlantis, like we have archaelogical evidence for things in the Bible. Furthermore, there is no religio-historical context as is the case for the 40 authors over 1500 years prophesying the coming Messiah and the New Testament writings.

Can and should are 2 very distinct things,  why would i believe that harming other people will bring me joy?  Nothing leads to instability more so than violating other people... I'm glad you think atheists are amoral destroyers of humanity....We are not, we just see things differently than you.  Yes I've heard all the preaching for the past 30 years, you reminding really isn't impressive nor does it scare me.  I will end up where I end up, god already knows that and you nor I will ever have any effect upon changing my predestination.  I spent 16 years in Christianity in every possible type of church looking for god, praying, asking for his forgiveness.  It all fell on deaf ears or maybe it was pointless to begin with.  Either way I could see the charade going on and the lack of response was a quiet deafness.  If there was a god who wanted to save some, he does not want me.  If the bible is even remotely true someone must have been created to fill, Cain or Lamech shoes for this time, maybe that is my function.

Atheists reject God which is a reflection of their eternal separation from God and selfish independency, despite the evidence that nothing in nature happens all by itself. God predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice, so it all depends on you as sovereign freewilled human being made in His image, otherwise it would be coerced and unloving to condemn you if you didn't have the choice. In the Bible God offers salvation, pleads with all and dies for all, so whosoever is willing can receive Him by the grace of God through faith. God loves you and wants to save you and it hurts His Heart to see you perish. God did not want Cain to do what He did, nor does He want you to call Him a liar. You are a sinner and the god of this world has blinded your mind from receiving the gospel. Your approach was all wrong. You said you were searching for God all these years. I contend that you were not, otherwise, you would have found Him. Therefore, you did not come to Him with an honest heart, so you put up a wall between Him and you. Nobody is to blame here but you. The proof convincts you, because you couldn't find fault for the proof of the resurrection, the proof of the uncreated Creator, yet you still remain as you are. If you were intellectually honest, you will give into this evidence.

Sorry I'm not one to go quietly in the night, but do not suppose that everyone was created for the purpose of have a choice between heaven and hell.  To think that if god exists, and I can force my will over gods, is foolish, but when you lack any alternative you must turn and head into doing the impossible even if that means you will fail.

Your assumptions are what keep you separated from God, but if God says He died for all and pleads with all
   , then that is what He said, and it is merely up to you trust His loving words. You are not forcing your will over God, but complying with the option He gives you. That's what He wants otherwise you are just an automaton and God of the Bible can certainly do better than that.

What we have established here is God has given you the choice and the choice you have employed is to reject God on your unfounded mistaken assumptions. So you misrepresent God of the Bible to reject God of the Bible. Again, this violates Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God. You are arguing against some god, but it is not God of the Bible. It is a great sin to bear false witness.

[Bill Clute]

Parture-

I found the Hawking quote you refer to on page 131.  I wouldn't take that quote, though, to conclude that he is now a believer.  First, the book is 20 years old.  Second, throughout the book he throws out numerous ideas and what the consequences might be from those ideas.  He doesn't necessarily say that he believes in them.  As the link you provided points out, the quote you listed is given in the context that the hot big bang theory is accepted.  He then goes on to give other theories as if he isn't ready to accept the hot big bang theory.  When reading the book I got the impression that he is agnostic with deist leanings.

There may be hope, though.  I have heard Ravi Zacharias say that Hawking has been attending church regularly in Cambridge.  I don't know how old that report is, though.  I had heard that his wife was a Christian but I believe they divorced a year or two ago.  He may have been attending with her and now that they are divorced no longer does...or maybe he has continued.  Who knows?

[Troy Brooks]

billclute wrote: I found the Hawking quote you refer to on page 131.  I wouldn't take that quote, though, to conclude that he is now a believer.  First, the book is 20 years old.  Second, throughout the book he throws out numerous ideas and what the consequences might be from those ideas.  He doesn't necessarily say that he believes in them.  As the link you provided points out, the quote you listed is given in the context that the hot big bang theory is accepted.  He then goes on to give other theories as if he isn't ready to accept the hot big bang theory.  When reading the book I got the impression that he is agnostic with deist leanings.

You're probably using some later edition of that book or there is some difference between a hard and soft cover, because most websites quote it as page 127. I never said he was a believer, but a deist. You can still think there is an uncreated Creator who intelligently designed, yet still be unsaved and going to Hell for rejecting the solution God provides in Christ. He is still rejecting the One True God.

I think his words are plain and his position is well stated. He does not qualify his words as in other places as being hypothetical, but are his genuinely heart felt belief. There is no specific evidence you gave to the contrary that he himself genuinely feels there is a Creator based on cosmological evidence. I wouldn't venture to put words in his mouth, but simply take him on his word in context. It may pain people to accept this, but the more they learn about cosmology the more they realize there has to be an uncreated Creator, e.g. there are over 800 variables required for life to exist on a planet. Factoring them all in together it is impossible for life to exist on another planet. Likewise there has not been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe to produce even one protein molecule of 200 amino acids let alone 1000 proteins to create the simplest life form. You can put a trillion monkies with a trillion typewriters and they will never be able to produce even one Shakespear play.

There may be hope, though.  I have heard Ravi Zacharias say that Hawking has been attending church regularly in Cambridge.  I don't know how old that report is, though.  I had heard that his wife was a Christian but I believe they divorced a year or two ago.  He may have been attending with her and now that they are divorced no longer does...or maybe he has continued.  Who knows?

Maybe Antony Flew will give his life to Christ one day too. You have used the term "church" incorrectly. The term "church" is well defined in Scripture.

[Bill Clute]

You have used the term "church" incorrectly. The term "church" is well defined in Scripture.

I used it in the common, generally spoken, meaning of the word.  It may not jive with what everyone would agree with about what a church should be but it was clear what I was saying.

[Troy Brooks]

billclute wrote: I used it in the common, generally spoken, meaning of the word.  It may not jive with what everyone would agree with about what a church should be but it was clear what I was saying.

How can it be clear if it is deceptive in part? Any statement you make no matter how true if it has a falsity in it lacks clarity. It is most common to reject Christ, but does that make calling Him a liar or a lunatic or something other than God to be a correctd statement? The Bible says, never divide the body of Christ denominationally by saying "I of Cephas", "I of Apollos", nor even non-denominationally or congregationally by saying "I of Christ".

Perhaps in the future you will always use the term correctly, "church" which is well defined in Scripture.