I like you asking me these questions because after reading the Bible and having a personal relationship with Christ, it is interesting how easy it is to answer your questions by the Holy Spirit indwelling my spirit. How true it is, His yoke is easy.
janalex1903 wrote: If nobody could go to Hell because they were robots this destroys true free will.
The question if people can go to Hell has thus been answered. The question if people do go to Hell is another question. Our free will does not mean anyone, or some unknown percentage, has to go to Hell, but that everyone is given the right to salvation.
How can people go to hell if they have no option not to go to hell. Let me point out that you say:
You have infinitely rejected Christ for your salvation, the only means by which God can restore a person back to Him.
If you never accept Christ while still in the body of flesh and blood then you have "infinitely rejected Christ for your salvation." You do have the option as was said, "that everyone is given the right to salvation."
If grace cannot be earned or chosen then how does freewill get me to heaven? I contend that god created these people with the knowledge that they will end up in hell. If Peter failed by denying christ 3 times, what makes me think that if god knows I will go to hell that I can freely change that?
The Bible says your choice is not something earned; faith and works are contrasted. Your choice is afforded to you by God to accept or reject God's resistible grace. God actually does create people knowing they will go to Hell, but not because He made them that way, but because
He could foresee their free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. He creates all people righteously. You can't change God, so asking to change God's decision about you is like asking to change God. That's impossible. God leaves it up to you to decide what you want in this life. He merely responds to your free will, letting you have what you want. It is still possible for you to give your life to Christ before you die.
In the forum on moral arguement on this site you say:
Just realize that Hell is very much needed by God, because it would be evil of God to let you just cease to exist
Eternity of pain or annihilation...hmmm let me think which is less evil.
Giving you awareness of God in your spirit of God-consciousness and self-consciousness in your soul, but then annihilating you is evil, for think of it. You go through your life knowing you are going to just cease to exist, so all your life live by the idea your alleged creator is going to annihilate you at the end of your few decades on earth. Now that is evil!
God values you. You are not instrumental value to Him (some means to an end), but intrinsic value, that is why He made you in His image. He can't make you cease to exist
however much you want to have this suicide of your life.
The other mistake you are making is presuming this "pain" in Hell you are going to have to endure for eternity is like something on earth. Realize the spiritual Hell you are going to exist in for eternity is different, for it is an eternal fire which never burns out, whereas the fire on earth is natural and always eventually burns out. Nonetheless, you have a foretaste of Hell even now, and whatever falsities you refuse to let go of, you can cling onto for eternity in Hell if you like. The verdict comes down upon you and you can keep rationalizing yourself all you like. You surely will for eternity, but there you will be in Hell for all eternity. Sounds like insanity on your part! On God's part it sounds like the right solution to your eternal choice.
If god is the creator of everything then he is responsible for the actions good or bad, that come from such creations. The fault for evil existing squarely falls on his shoulder. Having the power to prevent evil and not doing so makes god culpable for the evil that is done. Lets take it a step further, if god didn't create evil who did? Please don't say satan unless you are willing to admit that god didn't create him.
Being responsible does not mean He causes you to sin; rather, it means God must righteously respond to it and handle it properly. God will contain evil and even use evil for good, but in time, evil will be locked in Hell and the saved will be with Him in the New City and New Earth.
God does prevent evil, but not on your terms such that no evil could ever exist otherwise we are back to robots which is itself evil and does not allow God to commune with man made in His image. In due proper time, that is to say, God's timing according to spiritual reality, not by your puny brain. There is proper cause and effect in nature, just as there is from the fall in disobedience to the buildup of sin from that fall, to its eventualy and final verdict. This shows God's glory, power, righteousness and might. He is in complete control of the whole thing.
Lucifer is the first author of sin. God created him to have the choice. His choice to refuse God is not God's fault. God merely made him the most perfect angel that ever existed, and sad to say, he brought a 1/3 of the angels in rebellion with him. They will never repent, but you yet still may repent to the cross as a helpless sinner. They knew going in if they rebelled it would be for forever, but your rebellion gives you to the end of your life on earth, after which time, the choice is sealed.
My point is this, that a perfect creator doesn't need evil to justify the love of his creations. I can just as easily choose ice cream over pie for dessert and in no way does evil play a role in that decision, why then must evil play any role in free will?
Of course God
doesn't need evil to justify the love of His creation. But
if evil is not allowed to exist, then there is no free will. God can have a creation where there is no evil whatsoever; that is not the issue. The issue is the choice of His creation what they want. There are choices in life where they are not sinful or even selfish such as choosing ice cream over pie. But to have only choices which are never selfish or sinful is to make you a robot nonetheless, that is, a robot who can never rebel. This is not what God wants, for then you are not made in God's image to have the choice to rebel.
See how that works? It is most glorious and a much bigger God than the one you propose.
And if you blame God for the fact that some do choose Hell and not salvation, why are you blaming God for that which is not His fault?
Why shouldn't I blame god for the folley of his creations? Is he not perfect, could he have created us able to choose hell and never get there? he's perfect right? It could be that god never intended for everyone to go to heaven. As Macavelli says "absolute power corrupts absolutely".
The folley of His creation rests on His creation, not God, for God has done all He can to convince you to believe in Him; therefore, if you still reject Him, you are to blame, not God. Blame yourself, not God. God could never have created you to have the choice to go to Hell and prevent you from going there if your heart is set on going there as yours is. Otherwise, that is coercion. God doesn't force you, for He is perfect. God desires and intends for everyone to go to Heaven, but if you refuse His desire and intention, He will not be evil and force you into Heaven with those who do love Him, because it would not be loving to let someone like you who belongs in Hell to be with the saved in Heaven. Just as in the world, we don't let criminals out of jail who belong in jail forever, to protect society. One little sin is
eternal separation from God because God is infinite, but through Christ He redeems mankind back to Himself, whosoever is willing to receive Him. Think of it this way. God knows your condition, so God provides the means, otherwise He would be to blame. The only question then is, do you accept His solution? Though as a born-again believer, I still sin sometimes and am still selfish sometimes, God provides the conduit for me to go through so that I will attain sinless perfection one day after the 1000 years is finished (which has not started yet) for the commencement of the New City and New Earth. He puts me on the correct path. I am on it. I can't come off it. The issue for me then is do I go on that path unto rewards as an overcomer believer or do I lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years. In the world absolute power corrupts absolutely because man is a sinner, but God is sinlessly perfect in all regards, so His absolute sovereign power over my sovereignty is always righteous and holy and pure.
After all He created me. What is true of man is not true of God so catch phrases that apply to man, simply don't apply to God always.
Have you ever noticed that God's greatness and glory in what He can accomplish in His own people.
usually only occurs to opressed hurt disenfranchised people. Might it be this is the only whay he can get people to care about him and to reach out to him. It might be that he creates these scenarios, or "allows them to happen" so that someone might care about him. He did get pissed at the tower of bable and the cooperation without him. God's glory is always laid out on the table cloth of humanities blood. Why should we think him any better than a Myan god?
I am not sure I can make that sweeping statement, because I see God's greatness and glory even in non-disenfranchised people. For example, I don't think Bill Gates is born-again, nor Warren Buffet, but don't they give a lot of money away in their charities? Furthermore, there are some wealthy Christians and they do a great many good works as well. However, since God does respond to the meek and lowly, it only stands to reason He is for those the world is not for. You would expect this of a loving, merciful and gracious God. Those who are well off often don't have need for God. How much better if someone had riches and was obedient to God's will as well, but so often you have to be brought to the point of the down trodden appreciate God instead of relying on your flesh. When you are wealthy it is harder to get into Heaven because there is a tendency to depend on the world and not on God. Now this is not the only way to get someone to receive His salvation, but it is a very very effective way. Many people still come to Christ when they have received every benefit of the world as well.
Did you want to do a comparison of the things wrong with the Myan god and why God of the Bible is the real Creator and trumps the Myan god? We can go through 30,000 religions if you like, but for starters I would encourage you to conside this point. A loving God is an accessible God, and today, over 90% of world religions or views comprise just 4 basic types: Christianity, atheism/agnosticism, Islam and Hinduism/Buddhism. Since nature can't cause itself, atheism/agnosticism are false. Since Islam is about a guy in a cave six centuries later who said Jesus didn't die on the cross, Islam is false. And Hinduism and Buddhism are false since reincarnation doesn't promptly and effectively deal with sin since you get endless reincarnations to come back as a human after you became a chicken. Why did your Myan god fall off the radar? Answer that question and then you might find the answer why he is false. It seems to me the Myan god(s) are like Scientology and Gnosticism where it is said some aliens came to seed the planet to create humans. A loving God would never allow anyone but Himself to create beings with self-consciousness and God-consciousness. Furthermore, Christianity is proven by the resurrection of Jesus which only God could do. Whereas Myans have no such proofs and it is just assumed, plus where do their gods come from? Do they even have an uncreated Creator? God of the Bible says there are no gods, there is no God but Him.
And there is no better proof than the multiple attestation in various group settings of the resurrection.Let me make one last point
Grace defined by the Meridian Webster dictionary states:
unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
I would argue that asking for gods help constitues merit. You might consider it granting favor to a loyal subject.
When you get saved you are not asking God for help, but accepting the help He has already accomplished by His ranson paid on the cross almost 2000 years ago. I love how I can see these points showing I am truly born-again, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, whereas you can't see it at all. You have a spirit of rebellion, so you argue anything and everything no matter how nonsensical it sounds.
"Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and
not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among people, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4.12). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14.16). "I am the Lord, and there is no other Savior" (Is. 43.11). "I alone am the one who blots out your sins for my own sake" (v.25). When Jesus saw their faith, he said "friend, your sins are forgiven" (Luke 5.20). "They began thinking, 'Who is this man who speaks blasphemy?' Only God can forgive sins." (Luke 5.21)
All grace is specific, detailed and full of purpose
Purpose would constitute merit. So either your have defined your term "grace" inappropriately or the statement you made is false. Because the lack of reason, purpose, or necessity is the defintion of arbirtrary is the exact reason I define as grace as only able to be arbitrary. Am I missing so modality of grace?
God's purpose has merit, certainly. Why would God's merit be inappropriate? There is merit in giving you the choice, but your choice is not merited. Your choice is not a work. It is a gift given to you by God. God pleads for your salvation and in order to do so, you must have free will, which is not merit.
Grace is not arbitrary, but specific, detailed and full of purpose. When God gives man special grace to receive the gospel of salvation, your receiving it is not merited by you, but is simply a choice through grace by faith.
You are simply missing the fact that grace is sufficient and your choice is not a merit and your concience realizes this fact, but you are not listening to your own spirit because it is darkened by the sins of the world which aim to smother up your sensitivity to your inner man. That's why you try everything possible to your imagination to remain in disobedience to God through your petty self and natural man.
I would contend that God of things which are not His fault but the fault of those who refuse God? God's grace is in full knowledge of man's free will and in response to man's free will. Praise the Lord!
is gods fault because he created those whom refuse him to do so. If god is the cause of all causes then he must cause everything.
If God creates those who refuse Him is His fault for their choice to refuse Him, then He should not create anyone at all, but that will hardly do either. Ergo, God created people with choice as morally responsible beings.
God is the cause of free-will, then the free-will has the choice on its own and God would not be the cause of the individual choices of sovereign beings such as you and I. I do not pretend to know how God does this other than to give some details a
bout it as described by Molinism. Likewise, I can't tell you how God intervened and created the first single celled organism or how He started the big bang with the 10 strings in String Theory and how He can place the whole of the data of the universe in that virtually infinitely small space. Molinism to my knowledge is the best explanation for how God gives us free will and lets us have the choice.
