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Jem

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2016, 03:13:43 PM »
You need to read the whole chapter.

John 6:63-65:
Jesus said...."The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. (see v 44)

Unless God "draws" a person, they will not truly come to Christ...it's really that simple. Jesus did not have to chase after anyone because God knows the difference between those who belong to him and those who just imagine that they do.  (Matt 7:21-23)

There are two possibilities with regard to John 6:

1) Jesus taught in illustration. People left in disgust, because they took Jesus' teaching literally.

Jesus already said that his words were "spirit and life". As a devout Jew by birth and God's son in direct contact with his Father, Jesus would NEVER advise his Jewish disciples to break God's law, especially on blood. So I believe that  (1) is the only possibility.


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2) Jesus taught literally. People left in disgust, because they took Jesus' teaching literally.

(2) is impossible given Israel's law. Consuming blood was a capital offence. Eating human flesh would have been equally abhorrent.

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If (1) is true, then why did Jesus let those people go under a false impression of His teaching?

Because he already knew what was in their hearts. He said that 'the sheep hear the voice of the shepherd'....do you doubt that this is true? In his illustration of the "lost sheep" Jesus said that no effort is spared to find that lost one, so those who are looking for excuses not to listen, who take Jesus words as so shocking that they must leave him, were ever sheep to begin with.

After these people had been fed by him in miraculous fashion, they focused on what he could do for them, but when he said that they needed to do something that they took literally as abhorrent, then that met with a different reaction.
"So they said to him: “What must we do to carry out the works of God?” 29 In answer Jesus said to them: “This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in the one whom he sent.” (John 6:28, 29)

Were they exercising faith in the one God had sent by going off in a huff? If they believed that he was who he said he was, and they had already seen evidence of the holy spirit operating through him, why were they so easily put off?  Why not wait or ask for an explanation? The apostles demonstrated a different attitude, even though they too were shocked at his words, they realised that this was God's son and that they had nowhere else to go.

Do we get the lesson?

In Matt 7:21-23 Jesus is judging those who acknowledge him as "Lord". Why are these people labouring under a false impression that they are his followers when he denounces them in very straight language as ones he has NEVER known?

"Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

2 Thess 2:9-12 answers. People do not love the truth. They want Jesus to say things they want to hear.
It's not a "cramped and narrow road" if Christianity is easy. If it's easy, you are on the wrong track. (Matt 7:13, 14)

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Trinity

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2016, 03:27:51 PM »
Jem,

Is human sacrifice for the remission of sin against God's Law?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jem

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2016, 05:39:13 PM »
Jem,

Is human sacrifice for the remission of sin against God's Law?

No human sacrifice is required by God at all.

What Christ did was sacrifice his life as a substitute for our life. Its about justice, not sacrifice per se.

God's law required equivalency...."an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life". What Adam did was break the only law that had death as its stated penalty. In implementing the punishment, God took away Adam's right to live forever, but he did not prevent him from fulfilling the mandate that he had given them...to "be fruitful, become many and fill the earth". His children inherited the imperfection that came from his disobedience, so rather than have an imperfect race of free willed humans on earth, unable to undo what their forefather had done to them, Jesus volunteered to offer his life in exchange for the life Adam lost for his children.

Adam paid for his own sin....Jesus paid for ours.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 05:42:29 PM by Jem »
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Trinity

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2016, 06:08:54 PM »
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 9:22.

If there can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, then Jesus' sacrifice was required by God for the remission of sin.

This is a stumbling block to Jews, and foolishness to Gentiles.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jem

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2016, 12:29:49 AM »
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 9:22.

If there can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, then Jesus' sacrifice was required by God for the remission of sin.

Indeed, which is why the blood of animals provided the temporary forgiveness of sin for the Jews until the Christ came to offer forgiveness permanently. (Heb 10:11-14)

The law is about justice and God's law required equivalency.
Jesus came to pay for what Adam lost for his children......everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth with no aging, sickness or death. 

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This is a stumbling block to Jews, and foolishness to Gentiles.

Go figure why the Jews should stumble over it when their own scripture pointed to it.

Peter quotes Isaiah here in 1 Pet 2:21-25....

"For to this you were called, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving an example for you to follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin nor was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was maligned, he did not answer back; when he suffered, he threatened no retaliation, but committed himself to God who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we may cease from sinning and live for righteousness. By his wounds you were healed. 25 For you were going astray like sheep but now you have turned back to the shepherd and guardian of your souls."
(Isa 53:5, 9, 12)

Gratefully many gentiles listened to the Christian message and became believers.

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org

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Trinity

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2016, 04:13:09 AM »
I think that the Jewish stumbling block is an ethnic arrogance. When Jesus confronted the Jews, they told Him that they were children of Abraham and of Moses. Jesus turned their arrogance against them by telling them that if they were children of Abraham and Moses then they would do what they did. The Jews rejected Christ due to ethnic arrogance.

The stumbling block of the Gentiles on the other hand is philosophical arrogance rather than ethnic arrogance. Gentiles do not have the law and the prophets, so their rejection of Christ is based on vain philosophy, see for instance the Greeks in Paul's day and unbelievers today.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jem

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Re: Why Don't They do This for Everybody?
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2016, 02:52:37 PM »
I think that the Jewish stumbling block is an ethnic arrogance. When Jesus confronted the Jews, they told Him that they were children of Abraham and of Moses. Jesus turned their arrogance against them by telling them that if they were children of Abraham and Moses then they would do what they did. The Jews rejected Christ due to ethnic arrogance.

Yes, they were apparently laboring under the false impression that their position of favor with God was dependent upon their willing obedience to keep their part of the covenant. John the Baptist also warned them..."Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matt 3:9, 10)

They were in a situation where if they didn't 'shape up, they were going to ship out'.    We know what they chose and Jesus pronounced sentence upon them. (Matt 23:37-39)

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The stumbling block of the Gentiles on the other hand is philosophical arrogance rather than ethnic arrogance. Gentiles do not have the law and the prophets, so their rejection of Christ is based on vain philosophy, see for instance the Greeks in Paul's day and unbelievers today.

Indeed, philosophy has taken men to strange places in their thinking. Education seems to make humans think more of themselves than they ought to.....even placing their own thoughts and theories above those of their Creator. They have used their knowledge in heinous ways to the detriment of the whole planet which is now groaning under the weight of their scientific "achievements". God will make himself known to all in due time. (Ezek 7:8, 9) 
"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" Psalm 37:11

Unless otherwise stated, all quoted material taken from WTBTS sources. jw.org