A critique of New Atheism

[searcherman]

I've seen that philistine NA attitude about philosophy, even among the two lonely, philistine atheists in my area. You can't even talk about competing theologies, or even humanistic philosophy with them. There's this arrogant dismissal, "it's all bs" attitude.

Philosophy is like art, it's also a window to human psychology. And when I say philosophy l mean theology too.

[Philip Rand]

searcherman...

1/  What are your views concerning the Omega Point?

2/  What makes Humanistic Scientific Scepticism a superior aesthetic say over Roman Catholicism?

3/  What does the sentence "We are the universe experiencing itself" mean to you?

4/  What does the role of "kindness" play in Humanistic Scientific Scepticism?

Oh!  And searcherman.... have no worries concerning a trap or anything... so you are free to answer honestly... I am not out to criticise your world-view...

[john doe]

https://youtu.be/4F4qzPbcFiA

[Philip Rand]

https://youtu.be/4F4qzPbcFiA

So far, whateverist... you are as good as your word (twice now) regarding your "belief" strap-line:

Belief .. is the insistence that the truth is what one would .. wish.. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas..

Not once, have you expressed any views that reflect your "faith" strap-line...

I suggest you jettison the "faith" strap-line... cachinnate!

[john doe]

Weil I guess you just don't appreciate my sense of humor.  As to your suggestion, I believe I am and remain faithful to the truth as it reveals itself to me.  Doesn't mean I'm always right, but I am always loyal to what I perceive to be the truth.

[Philip Rand]

Searcherman… I am continuing this thread on account the Mass paper is important… I hope you do not mind…

You wrote:

I thought I'd start a new thread on this:

1/  What are your views concerning the Omega Point?


I just learned what this is. I will have to read more on it. But I look to science on how the universe began, and how it will end. I can't let what I want the universe to be override the science. The best available science says Dark Energy will dominate and tear the cosmos apart. We just discovered gravity waves and this is an exciting time for cosmological discovery. Stay tuned.

2/  What makes Humanistic Scientific Scepticism a superior aesthetic say over Roman Catholicism?

If you mean in the arts, I can't say my views, or aesthetic preferences, are superior. It would be arrogant for me to say so. The Catholic clergy and laity I know are better educated in the arts and history than I. I try to learn from them.

3/  What does the sentence "We are the universe experiencing itself" mean to you?

"we are made of star stuff", one of my most favorite Sagan quotes. Our brains chemicals came from those stars. This vid by Neal deGrasse Tyson says it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU

4/  What does the role of "kindness" play in Humanistic Scientific Scepticism?

This might be a start. We believe our capacity for good comes when we see our whole planet as our tribe:

http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II

Here's another gem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5dlbCh8lY

Regarding the Omega Point… It is the Frank Tipler version I was thinking of… because essentially it would correspond to a surface Atheist Metaphysic, i.e.

A Universe that uses the Feynman idea that the universe is a giant quantum computer… that is bootstrapped to a Gold type universe… a universe that does have a Purpose using the Holographic universe approach… all grounded within Spinoza metaphysics.

This metaphysic would also describe the Sagan quote: “We are the universe exploring itself.” i.e. implies Purpose to the universe.

The question concerning aesthetics is important in this regard:  Is aesthetics objective or subjective?

Here, I imagine that you are referring to the importance of what one looks at rather than what one looks like… and what one looks at makes the person… so, questions like… what is your favourite book, what is your favourite piece of music… what is your favourite piece of architecture, what is your favourite piece of art, etc. are fundamentally important… right?

The Sagan quote is also revealing in the sense that it suggests that the audience humans act for are themselves only, i.e. there is no absolute audience… God for example. 

Here, the writings of Richard Rorty would be most informative… Rorty is the only atheist philosopher I am aware of who has fundamentally examined what it is to be an atheist…(interestingly, at the end of his life he regretted that he did not spend more time looking into aesthetics).

Now, the question concerning kindness is interesting…

Here I am referring to the posts you made suggesting the Witch Hunt and its affects…. Again, in many ways reflects Sagans quote, i.e. a human audience does have the ability to humiliate other humans… which suggests that the Atheist goal is Happiness…I am not suggesting that humiliating humans is the goal of atheism... all I am suggesting is that two dynamics exist in the atheist view of the world, i.e. individual freedom and group judgement... and that this dynamic fluctuates, i.e. one minute one is praised and the other minute one is blamed....and the stability of this dynamic leads to Happiness...so the goal of an Atheist Metaphysic is to contrive a critical stability between human freedom & human group judgement...

So, the question is…. How does Humanistic Scientific Scepticism lead to Human Happiness?

[searcherman]

Searcherman… I am continuing this thread on account the Mass paper is important… I hope you do not mind…

You wrote:

I thought I'd start a new thread on this:

1/  What are your views concerning the Omega Point?


I just learned what this is. I will have to read more on it. But I look to science on how the universe began, and how it will end. I can't let what I want the universe to be override the science. The best available science says Dark Energy will dominate and tear the cosmos apart. We just discovered gravity waves and this is an exciting time for cosmological discovery. Stay tuned.

2/  What makes Humanistic Scientific Scepticism a superior aesthetic say over Roman Catholicism?

If you mean in the arts, I can't say my views, or aesthetic preferences, are superior. It would be arrogant for me to say so. The Catholic clergy and laity I know are better educated in the arts and history than I. I try to learn from them.

3/  What does the sentence "We are the universe experiencing itself" mean to you?

"we are made of star stuff", one of my most favorite Sagan quotes. Our brains chemicals came from those stars. This vid by Neal deGrasse Tyson says it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU

4/  What does the role of "kindness" play in Humanistic Scientific Scepticism?

This might be a start. We believe our capacity for good comes when we see our whole planet as our tribe:

http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II

Here's another gem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5dlbCh8lY

Regarding the Omega Point… It is the Frank Tipler version I was thinking of… because essentially it would correspond to a surface Atheist Metaphysic, i.e.

A Universe that uses the Feynman idea that the universe is a giant quantum computer… that is bootstrapped to a Gold type universe… a universe that does have a Purpose using the Holographic universe approach… all grounded within Spinoza metaphysics.

This metaphysic would also describe the Sagan quote: “We are the universe exploring itself.” i.e. implies Purpose to the universe.

The question concerning aesthetics is important in this regard:  Is aesthetics objective or subjective?

Here, I imagine that you are referring to the importance of what one looks at rather than what one looks like… and what one looks at makes the person… so, questions like… what is your favourite book, what is your favourite piece of music… what is your favourite piece of architecture, what is your favourite piece of art, etc. are fundamentally important… right?

The Sagan quote is also revealing in the sense that it suggests that the audience humans act for are themselves only, i.e. there is no absolute audience… God for example. 

Here, the writings of Richard Rorty would be most informative… Rorty is the only atheist philosopher I am aware of who has fundamentally examined what it is to be an atheist…(interestingly, at the end of his life he regretted that he did not spend more time looking into aesthetics).

Now, the question concerning kindness is interesting…

Here I am referring to the posts you made suggesting the Witch Hunt and its affects…. Again, in many ways reflects Sagans quote, i.e. a human audience does have the ability to humiliate other humans… which suggests that the Atheist goal is Happiness…I am not suggesting that humiliating humans is the goal of atheism... all I am suggesting is that two dynamics exist in the atheist view of the world, i.e. individual freedom and group judgement... and that this dynamic fluctuates, i.e. one minute one is praised and the other minute one is blamed....and the stability of this dynamic leads to Happiness...so the goal of an Atheist Metaphysic is to contrive a critical stability between human freedom & human group judgement...

So, the question is…. How does Humanistic Scientific Scepticism lead to Human Happiness?

You are much more well read on cosmological philosophy than I. I don't ascribe any purpose or reason to the universe. To me that presupposes a deist creator, at least. I cannot say I have proof that any form of thought or consciousness did not create, gave purpose, or otherwise fine tuned the universe. It's just that "I have no need for that hypothesis". Now there are many untestable hypotheses on multiverses, continuous quantum fluctuation, big bang. They may be mathematically coherent and conform to  the quantum relativistic theories, they are exciting to discus and expand on, but they are unfalsifiable. This discovery of gravity waves just has me so stoked. It opens up a new field of astronomy. Will it help us discover the nature of Dark Energy? We need to methodically knock down those barriers that get us to the beginning of our known cosmos.

Now I know theists operate on the assumption that thought precedes matter. This makes the naturalist/materialist world view such a bummer to them. A cold uncaring universe, no reason or rhyme. We evolved from hydrogen bouncing around for 13,800,000,000 years. The universe looks to be torn apart by Dark Energy in trillions of years. Sounds bad. That glass is half empty. I like the half full viewpoint. How freaking awesome it is that we evolved from this, by natural laws that don't guarantee we survive a cosmos full of danger, supernovae, asteroids, colliding bodies. As the Onion satirical article said, "Earth is in the lamest part of the galaxy". How cool is that? That lameness helped us survive. That's the joy and excitement us geeks get. If the universe has no purpose, then we will give ourselves one.

[searcherman]

You bring up aesthetics, which begs the question of consciousness and empathy. Let's start with objective bases for kindness. Primatologist Franz de Waal speaks about structures in the brains of higher mammals. There are neural nodes in elephants, cetacean and apes (that includes us of course). These light up in scans when empathy and other positive interaction result, according to de Waal. That aspect of positive human interaction is baked in genetically, thanks to evolution by natural selection. We have seen empathetic/altruistic behavior in these species also. Elephants adopting young not related to them directly. Cetaceans helping divers at sea. Cetaceans are even seeing it in us. There needs to be more observational data on this, but I have read some diver accounts of dolphins caught up in fishing gear, coming up to divers, seemingly knowing that the divers will cut them free. Whales caught up similarly act in ways described as grateful to divers. Then our large analytical brain has figured out what game theory confirms, a team of rule followers will eventually beat out a team of cheaters.

We have a history of war and brutality. These mass rapes in Sudan are the latest horror I know about. Really cruel stuff. But humans can only be taught to do this. The "other" must be dehumanized by propaganda. But as we see our species as one village, this will cease. As scientific progress helps us to communicate through the internet, as is keeps feeding us and fighting disease, and saving our environment, we can have a future of no war. It won't be easy, but history shows we are getting better, compared to the previous centuries.

[searcherman]

How does Humanism lead to Human Happiness?

By making a world where we are well fed, vaccinated, healthy environment, educated, culturally enriched, access to information and to all people on earth, AND, basic human rights.

"Humanism is a philosophy, world view, or lifestance based on naturalism-the conviction that the universe or nature is all that exists or is real. Humanism serves, for many humanists, some of the psychological and social functions of a religion, but without belief in deities, transcendental entities, miracles, life after death, and the supernatural. Humanists seek to understand the universe by using science and its methods of critical inquiry-logical reasoning, empirical evidence, and skeptical evaluation of conjectures and conclusions-to obtain reliable knowledge. Humanists affirm that humans have the freedom to give meaning, value, and purpose to their lives by their own independent thought, free inquiry, and responsible, creative activity. Humanists stand for the building of a more humane, just, compassionate, and democratic society using a pragmatic ethics based on human reason, experience, and reliable knowledge-an ethics that judges the consequences of human actions by the well-being of all life on Earth." • Steven Schafersman

http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Definitions_of_Humanism

[john doe]

Enjoying your posts SearcherGuy.  It would be great if there was a kudos button to record agreement/approval more specifically when one feels a point has been well made.

[Hawke123]

Enjoying your posts SearcherGuy.  It would be great if there was a kudos button to record agreement/approval more specifically when one feels a point has been well made.

The forum used to have an applaud/smite system, but it was removed sometime last year.

[john doe]

Enjoying your posts SearcherGuy.  It would be great if there was a kudos button to record agreement/approval more specifically when one feels a point has been well made.

The forum used to have an applaud/smite system, but it was removed sometime last year.

Oh I remember it well.  There were members then who made sure to renew my smiting just as soon as the system would allow it, like clockwork.  They were equally smarmy with their pals.  Not everyone mind you but that kind of thing brings the worst out in many.  I just don't see how applause alone could do any harm other than all the mutual back slapping between the like minded I suppose.