Creation/Evolution and the age of the earth

[lahr3815]

What room is there for evolution in the Bible? Is there an argument for gap theory, day-age theory, or perhaps even a mytho interpretation of Genesis? These are questions I've always pondered and I desire to engage in a healthy conversation on the subject! Thoughts??

[Harvey]

What room is there for evolution in the Bible? Is there an argument for gap theory, day-age theory, or perhaps even a mytho interpretation of Genesis? These are questions I've always pondered and I desire to engage in a healthy conversation on the subject! Thoughts??

Genesis generally matches the scientific record. Reading it with the limited vocabulary and understanding of the Hebrew language it is reasonable to think the scientific history of earth is being described.

Evolution could also fit. For example, Adam and the animals are both constructed of clay, but it is not said whether the formation was originally from clay and forming the entire history of life. For example, clay is considered one of the key possible sources for the origin of life.. Other possible indications for evolution is that in Genesis 1 life begins simple and becomes more advanced as each day moves forward. There's a series of these hints.

[jayceeii]

What room is there for evolution in the Bible? Is there an argument for gap theory, day-age theory, or perhaps even a mytho interpretation of Genesis? These are questions I've always pondered and I desire to engage in a healthy conversation on the subject! Thoughts??

Down the ages a lot has been missing from Christianity that one might expect from a fully rational society. One is an inability to conceive what everyday life was like in a pre-scientific era. People are unable to see the knowledge that has come to us today, was not available back then. Another is an inability to conceive what the conditions of revelation are like, or even to wonder about a specific mechanism that gives a prophet authority to speak for God. The general idea is that some people seem to feel inspired, that the rest later accept to be prophets for causes unknown and uninvestigated. A third is that no new prophets are accepted or tolerated, the general feeling that God has no need or desire for closer guidance of humanity than the Bible afforded, some of its supposed prophets having written no other prophets would appear. The Book of Revelation, for one, shows that a prophet is limited by his times for forming ideas by which to reveal, for instance describing a beast who would reign for 42 months, as we might today suppose the current President is meant, whose dominion was cut short by the COVID-19 pandemic at more or less exactly 42 months. Or how something like a mountain in the sea might represent an aircraft carrier, as the prophet forecast based on a knowledge of human propensities for both technology and violence. With respect to Genesis one may say the Christians seem divided between those who can appreciate the use of poetic metaphor, and literalists who seem to have no poetic dimension to their souls whatever. Yet among those who admit a seven day creation may be a metaphor from a prophet who had no access to radiometric dating equipment or even theory, there is an inability to credit the Living God with having actually made the Earth. These Christians admit the Earth to be five billion years old, as science suggests, but nonetheless persist in a superstitious belief that God can create a new planet with a finger snap, once the human race has disposed of this planet.

[Mammal]

Summary: Nothing much in the Bible could therefore be taken seriously.

[jayceeii]

Summary: Nothing much in the Bible could therefore be taken seriously.

Ha! No doubt. This has begun to really baffle me, how the preachers insist the Bible has sufficient guidance for man, when it has virtually no guidance. But men don’t want to be restrained. They don’t want to hear more advice from God, and this is why no one ever wonders what the eleventh commandment should be, or wishes Jesus had lived longer so that He could say more (or wrote with volumes instead of merely mumbling in parables).

The religions are rumors and innuendo and there’s an important reason for this, the truth is not something humans are prepared to hear. There’s a lot more work in it for them than they want. All Christians say they long to be with Jesus, but none stops to ponder this would mean a total reversal of the personality and society. To be a better companion for the Lord and to each other would’ve been a good goal in religion; this couldn’t be asked.

If anyone could find one serious truth in the Bible I’d be interested to hear what it is. The whole thing has exploded for me into meaningless vapor, with the simple application of a few realistic principles of goodness, for instance loving the neighbor as oneself in a real way. The higher life evidently requires powers not given to the human race, powers to realize who one is and what is one’s place in the universe, then applying this to a society.

[Harvey]

If anyone could find one serious truth in the Bible I’d be interested to hear what it is. The whole thing has exploded for me into meaningless vapor, with the simple application of a few realistic principles of goodness, for instance loving the neighbor as oneself in a real way. The higher life evidently requires powers not given to the human race, powers to realize who one is and what is one’s place in the universe, then applying this to a society.

Just look at the societies that value human rights, justice, equality, etc. The Bible repeats these themes dozens if not hundreds of times.

[jayceeii]

Just look at the societies that value human rights, justice, equality, etc. The Bible repeats these themes dozens if not hundreds of times.

Such ideas only form rules for how selfish or greedy ones will divide up the resource pie, in fierce competition with the rest for the sake of a family. Humans do not rise to love, only to toleration. They say, “Don’t step on my toes, and I’ll (try to) not step on yours.” If you want to speak of rights, you can ask about the rights of future generations to the resources an overpopulated planet squanders mercilessly today. Justice is a concept that requires injustice to have been possible. Equality of body is real, but equality of spirit is fiction. The Bible rises no higher than human laws, the prophets knowing their religion wouldn’t be accepted if they portrayed God asking more for man than he did for himself.

God has higher standards than were given to men in the religions, and if men really wanted to go to Heaven they’d be forming committees and study groups to ask how the angels live and try to adapt themselves to these higher ways. Swedenborg remarked that the notion Christians have of Heaven doesn’t rise high enough to be called an idea, because if it did they’d immediately have to ask why they can’t dwell like the angels now, if among the angels is where they expect to find themselves. They’d be trying to create a pattern of Heaven on the Earth, which some bright poets will admit is heavenly.

A man who demands justice is a selfish man. He should have thought of friendship first. A man who won’t admit the others have a right to the five essentials of life—food, clothing, shelter, medical and dental care—is a selfish man. From the Bible we don’t even know if Jesus was in favor of universal healthcare, since the good Samaritan needed to pay for the wounded man’s care. I have a long list of higher principles, but selfish men reject these. It starts with not wanting more than your friend (neighbor) can also have, for that would be manifestly unfriendly. And an exchange of money exploits a friend’s need. 

The Living God disappears in the Bible, since it only describes what men already knew, from such philosophies as utilitarianism. To go higher than the separatists, requires a higher vision of the nature of the people and their destiny. I think there are people with the higher patterns impressed in them, though currently their minds may be clogged with the formerly revealed religions. Yet I fear someone who is a heartfelt Christian as an adult may be beyond any hope of awakening. The religion is too full of falseness for that.

[Harvey]

Ate you an atheist, Jayceeii?

[jayceeii]

Ate you an atheist, Jayceeii?

I haven’t ate me an atheist recently, but there isn’t a significant difference between theists and atheists. Both have an incorrect conception of God, one loving and the other hating the empty air around themselves. I had been hoping you’d attack my assertion that a man demanding justice is selfish, since there’s an easy counter, that a man who has been wronged should expect to see the wrongs redressed. The reply is a higher interpretation of Jesus’ assertion to turn the other cheek. Are you a person who literally could never harm another? If it is so, then if you can find other members in your class, you can engender a society where no one is ever wronged. That’s what I meant, he should have thought of friendship first. So far it seems there is no such class among the humans, which means that all humans are capable of harm. Clinging to the family and denying friendship, if harmed they turn to the courts, not having set up a better and safer society.

If your “ate” was a typo and you were asking me if I am an atheist, that would be too bad for you. As Ramakrishna told Vivekananda, I see God more clearly than I see humanity. Humans think their belief is important, but that is not the criterion by which God judges. Belief is closely ranked with opinion, and none has a right opinion about religion since none has experience of spirit, to be conversant with metaphysical and existential truths. I guess the Christians have faith Jesus will forgive their lack of knowledge, and perhaps He would if they could make their belief real. Instead the one thing we have learned from Christianity is that humans will slay their Creator should He reveal Himself. This is the bad news of the Bible, but its central message. Jesus said He’d find no real faith on Earth.

[Harvey]

You sounded like a cannibal who preferred eating atheists. #joking

[jayceeii]

You sounded like a cannibal who preferred eating atheists. #joking

I’ll eat me an atheist, and you eat you an atheist. There’s one key trick the theists have not learned, and it is because they’re missing the same thing as atheists. This is to point out that if you truly enjoy your life, you will long for eternal continuance, grasping at straws in religion during such periods in history where God has given no clear revelation about it. (For instance Jesus promises eternal life, but didn’t say as who or what. Also if the souls are inherently immortal this amounts to promising nothing at all. Whosoever believes in Him has eternal life, but also whosoever does not believe in Him, as it is.)

The atheist is then compelled to argue that he deeply enjoys his life, but also doesn’t care if he disappears at death. This is tantamount to their usual argument, where they rather mindlessly intone that life can only be enjoyed now and smart people learn not to care if it ends. But then a real theist would counter that cannot be accepted as true enjoyment or as fully rational. But the theists don’t argue this, because the fact is they aren’t enjoying their lives that much either. This is a problem of man, not really wanting to be here at all.

The theists and atheists are two sides of the same coin, one believing in a fictional God, the other rejecting a fictional God. And the religions have only presented a fictional God. The Living God and His higher principles have not been presented, nor have humans wondered how things are done differently in the Heaven they intend to invade in a herd. There are higher and more intimate proofs of God’s existence that come to souls in themselves, and this is the real way the disciples (minus Judas) were able to recognize Jesus. “The Life of Brian” showed humorously how everyday humans reject a prophet. A key scene shows how the Sermon on the Mount really couldn’t have happened that way!

[Mlsk]

Just a musing of mine, as someone who believes in the inspiration of the Bible and also that evolution is probably true, does it ever give YECs pause that almost no one else believes that the universe is less than 10,000 years old other than them? Doesn't that say something?

[Harvey]

Just a musing of mine, as someone who believes in the inspiration of the Bible and also that evolution is probably true, does it ever give YECs pause that almost no one else believes that the universe is less than 10,000 years old other than them? Doesn't that say something?

In my experience they see it as an extension of their biblical faith and part of divine revelation.

[jayceeii]

Just a musing of mine, as someone who believes in the inspiration of the Bible and also that evolution is probably true, does it ever give YECs pause that almost no one else believes that the universe is less than 10,000 years old other than them? Doesn't that say something?

In my experience they see it as an extension of their biblical faith and part of divine revelation.

But as they do so, they deny the evidence of millions of scientists publishing peer-reviewed articles insisting the Earth is ancient as every physical means of ascertaining this proves. Those who believe in a magic world where they can deny the other humans and their best discoveries, don’t seem exactly competent. If God is great then He has done great things, and greater than a finger-snap world is one that is eternal and endures.