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Posted by: shoyt
« on: July 13, 2020, 12:55:04 PM »Your understanding of evil is lacking, in order to make the point you seek to make. You define evil as a great suffering, but by the standard set in Judaism, and Christianity, you're wrong. This is to say, that your arguing against the idea of the God of Christianity, so your interpretation must be correct in order to disprove that god.
Evil, is not suffering intensely by the standards of Christianity. It is acting against the will of god. Knowing the divine good, and acting in direct violation of that good. Evil is not necessary to the existence of God, for He is the perfect moral good. However, in creating a free willed being, that can act in direct opposition of God's Will, you bring by necessity another option to the proverbial table. In this case it is evil. Evil is directly subversive of good. It is it's opposite. So if god allows you to suffer greatly, that is not evil.
I would recommend you understand biblical passage, in order to properly form a case against god in the sense of evil's existence.
The rape and torture of children is evil. It may be a sufficient cause to a moral end but not a necessary cause. That means it's gratuitous, unnecessary. God is sovereign and allows all evil. God is immoral if gratuitous evil exists, and, it does.
Please don't tell other people they haven't done their homework when you are in the very same boat.
Even if you have, it's still rude ... just bring them up to speed with the love and kindness Christ had but few Christians seem to.
Posted by: shoyt
« on: July 13, 2020, 12:49:46 PM »
P1 If God Exists he is the only necessary being (you could say a MGB) – Omnipotent (it’s capable of actualizing anything that does not imply a logical contradiction or it’s logically inconceivable), omniscient (knows the whole set of all possible ways and degrees of knowledge of everything there is to be known) and omnibenevolent/morally perfect – and everything else that exists or comes into existence is created, directly or indirectly, contingently to divine will (that must comport, at the same time and for all of his decisions, all of the implications of the former attributes listed above).
P2. There is a vast order of other things.
C1. If God exists, then there is a vast created order which is contingent upon his will. (from P1 and P2)
Let me stop you here. This takes much practice, so maybe some helpful advice for future arguments you make in standard form.
Be clear, be brief, don't entail, don't fiat.
For instance: There's no reason to think that (P1) is true because there no reason to think that if God is necessary (to what, you don't say) that He is the only such being. Assuming you mean "to existence", it's hardly clear why that would be. Necessary beings simply exist as a brute fact, and always have. I don't see any logical problems with there being more than one of that sort.
Here, you fiat and entail and are unclear in your meaning.
The argument fails at this point, but we could go on ...
(P2) ... what is order, how is it vast, and how does it relate to "things"? For instance, that I write a numbered shopping list doesn't imply a relationship between items, or that order isn't merely a term of convention.
The argument fails here.
Your conclusion doesn't follow for several reasons .... some of the reasons relate to issues I just raised. But supposing all premises are perfect and true. God can be a necessary cause of order but not a sufficient cause and unless He's the sufficient cause, the conclusion isn't necessary.
Posted by: LogicalChristianity
« on: October 07, 2019, 08:48:33 PM »Your understanding of evil is lacking, in order to make the point you seek to make. You define evil as a great suffering, but by the standard set in Judaism, and Christianity, you're wrong. This is to say, that your arguing against the idea of the God of Christianity, so your interpretation must be correct in order to disprove that god.
Evil, is not suffering intensely by the standards of Christianity. It is acting against the will of god. Knowing the divine good, and acting in direct violation of that good. Evil is not necessary to the existence of God, for He is the perfect moral good. However, in creating a free willed being, that can act in direct opposition of God's Will, you bring by necessity another option to the proverbial table. In this case it is evil. Evil is directly subversive of good. It is it's opposite. So if god allows you to suffer greatly, that is not evil.
I would recommend you understand biblical passage, in order to properly form a case against god in the sense of evil's existence.
Evil, is not suffering intensely by the standards of Christianity. It is acting against the will of god. Knowing the divine good, and acting in direct violation of that good. Evil is not necessary to the existence of God, for He is the perfect moral good. However, in creating a free willed being, that can act in direct opposition of God's Will, you bring by necessity another option to the proverbial table. In this case it is evil. Evil is directly subversive of good. It is it's opposite. So if god allows you to suffer greatly, that is not evil.
I would recommend you understand biblical passage, in order to properly form a case against god in the sense of evil's existence.
Posted by: Tetezk
« on: September 21, 2019, 03:57:21 PM »Hi, folks, just finished translating my logical argument from evil to the impossibility of the skeptical theist response. The argument also shows the impossibility of any other odyssey or defense like Plantinga's free will defense, because the problem that i'm posing it's transcendental to all of this issues, and by that i mean that these responses pressuppose some conditions that my argument attends to show that are in fact impossible. The argument goes as it follows:
Logical Argument from Evil and for the implausibility of the skeptical theist responses
P1 If God Exists he is the only necessary being (you could say a MGB) – Omnipotent (it’s capable of actualizing anything that does not imply a logical contradiction or it’s logically inconceivable), omniscient (knows the whole set of all possible ways and degrees of knowledge of everything there is to be known) and omnibenevolent/morally perfect – and everything else that exists or comes into existence is created, directly or indirectly, contingently to divine will (that must comport, at the same time and for all of his decisions, all of the implications of the former attributes listed above).
P2. There is a vast order of other things.
C1. If God exists, then there is a vast created order which is contingent upon his will. (from P1 and P2)
P3. If the created order – in the totallity of its forms, substances and consequent causal relations/interactions of elements and events – is contingent upon divine will (which must comport divine attributes and it’s implications), then it could have been created in any other way that would not imply a logical contradiction/be logically inconceivable, resulting in other possible causal relations/interactions between elements/substances/events.
C2. Causal relations/interactions between elements/substances/events in the created order – which are contingent upon God’s will (which must comport his atributes and it’s implications) – could’ve been created in any other way that would not imply a logical contradiction/be logically inconceivable, resulting in other possible causal relations/interactions between elements/substances/events. (from C1 and P3)
Given C2, lets see how the logical problem of suffering goes without fear of the skeptical theist response.
P5. Good is oppose to evil in such a way that na omnipotent and omniscient God, in order to be perfectly good/omnibenevolent/morally perfect, will necessarily eliminate/avoid every single evil/suffering such that, to every good it alledgelly implies it, the non-implication to the good is not logically contradictory/inconceivable or there is a higher good that does not implie it.
P6. Evil/intense suffering which it’s non-implication to a given good it’s not logically contradictory/inconceivable or that has a greater good which does not implie it, is, gratuitous evil. (definition of gratuitous evil)
C3. If God exists, then it follows necessarily that gratuitous evils cannot exist. (from P5 and P6)
P7 If God exists, events like the hollocaust or new-born child anomalies/genetic deseases are events in the created order.
C4. If God exists, events like the hollocaust or new-born child anomalies/genetic deseases, aswell as it’s causal relations/interaction with other elements/substances/events that constitute them, could’ve been other that wouldn’t be logically contradictory/inconceivable, and therefore cannot justify a necessary implication of any good in the created order which it’s actualization without the suffering and evil wouldn’t be logically contradictory/inconceivable or that has a greater good which does not imply the evil/suffering (like the holocaust or new-born deseases). (From P7 e C2)
C5. Gratuitous evils exist. (from P7 and C4)
C6. God does not exist (From C3 and C5)
Logical Argument from Evil and for the implausibility of the skeptical theist responses
P1 If God Exists he is the only necessary being (you could say a MGB) – Omnipotent (it’s capable of actualizing anything that does not imply a logical contradiction or it’s logically inconceivable), omniscient (knows the whole set of all possible ways and degrees of knowledge of everything there is to be known) and omnibenevolent/morally perfect – and everything else that exists or comes into existence is created, directly or indirectly, contingently to divine will (that must comport, at the same time and for all of his decisions, all of the implications of the former attributes listed above).
P2. There is a vast order of other things.
C1. If God exists, then there is a vast created order which is contingent upon his will. (from P1 and P2)
P3. If the created order – in the totallity of its forms, substances and consequent causal relations/interactions of elements and events – is contingent upon divine will (which must comport divine attributes and it’s implications), then it could have been created in any other way that would not imply a logical contradiction/be logically inconceivable, resulting in other possible causal relations/interactions between elements/substances/events.
C2. Causal relations/interactions between elements/substances/events in the created order – which are contingent upon God’s will (which must comport his atributes and it’s implications) – could’ve been created in any other way that would not imply a logical contradiction/be logically inconceivable, resulting in other possible causal relations/interactions between elements/substances/events. (from C1 and P3)
Given C2, lets see how the logical problem of suffering goes without fear of the skeptical theist response.
P5. Good is oppose to evil in such a way that na omnipotent and omniscient God, in order to be perfectly good/omnibenevolent/morally perfect, will necessarily eliminate/avoid every single evil/suffering such that, to every good it alledgelly implies it, the non-implication to the good is not logically contradictory/inconceivable or there is a higher good that does not implie it.
P6. Evil/intense suffering which it’s non-implication to a given good it’s not logically contradictory/inconceivable or that has a greater good which does not implie it, is, gratuitous evil. (definition of gratuitous evil)
C3. If God exists, then it follows necessarily that gratuitous evils cannot exist. (from P5 and P6)
P7 If God exists, events like the hollocaust or new-born child anomalies/genetic deseases are events in the created order.
C4. If God exists, events like the hollocaust or new-born child anomalies/genetic deseases, aswell as it’s causal relations/interaction with other elements/substances/events that constitute them, could’ve been other that wouldn’t be logically contradictory/inconceivable, and therefore cannot justify a necessary implication of any good in the created order which it’s actualization without the suffering and evil wouldn’t be logically contradictory/inconceivable or that has a greater good which does not imply the evil/suffering (like the holocaust or new-born deseases). (From P7 e C2)
C5. Gratuitous evils exist. (from P7 and C4)
C6. God does not exist (From C3 and C5)