Retired Boards (Archived)
Trinity
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: April 14, 2020, 12:28:22 PM »One would only say that God created the world through His Word, i.e. the Incarnation, if one accepted God manifests the Incarnation with sufficient power and awareness to truly represent the Creator. In other words the angels looking around would be able to identify all those with created souls, including themselves. Seeing the Lord they can tell there is no created soul and they therefore think, by logic, “That one alone might’ve created the world.” Moreover watching carefully they see the Lord continues to bear that weight, the heaviest one, with authentic traces to the Creator’s overall awareness of the whole planet.Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The meaning is the literal consciousness of the Invisible God is present in the Lord.So the logos.. aka.. the "Word" God created the world with his Word, The first thing he said was Genesis 1:3 "let there be light" In John 8:12 "i am the light of the world"
Jesus was Gods first creation with in this world, on which it is imparted his consciousness.
But it is not the trinity.
Humans can’t see this, as it is obscured by the limits of embodiment. They also can’t understand it, since their minds are limited to thinking about a body, not the spirit that is present in that body, in its variable forms. Thus the early religious revelations were sunk in poetry allowing multiple interpretations, including selfish ones. Far more exacting definitions of the metaphysical realities can be made, at least enough to cut off the greedy folk. In your case, you have made two contrary metaphysical assertions, both that Jesus was God’s first creation, and that Jesus contains God’s authentic consciousness. Both these cannot be right. The doctrine of the Trinity says correctly, that Jesus was not made.
Your final assertion is trebly confusing, since where you quote me I did not say something was the trinity, nor is it clear what you intend us to understand by “it.” The Trinity is a way to comprehend God’s manifestations. I like to say the Father is the Mind, the Son is the Voice or Word, and the Holy Spirit is the arms of power over the creation. WLC said it right, that one cannot be a Christian without accepting the Trinity since there is then no mechanism for understanding, “Jesus is Lord.” God is literally present in Jesus.
We have to admit, however, that though manifesting the best and highest of God’s Personality, the power to create the world was not in the Lord. And yet, if you look again, Jesus does contain the awareness of the one who really created the world, since this is God’s authentic living consciousness. Jesus’ statement “only God is good” has so many possible interpretations one gets dizzy considering them all. My favorite is the man said, “You are good, Lord,” then Jesus replied, “Only God is good, perhaps you have seen that I am God.” Nonetheless the Lord must bear a certain humility before the all-conquering arms of the Holy Spirit. That power is unquestioned, although its beauty is rather limited.
Posted by: Aaron Massey
« on: April 10, 2020, 04:46:21 AM »Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The meaning is the literal consciousness of the Invisible God is present in the Lord.So the logos.. aka.. the "Word" God created the world with his Word, The first thing he said was Genesis 1:3 "let there be light" In John 8:12 "i am the light of the world"
Jesus was Gods first creation with in this world, on which it is imparted his consciousness.
But it is not the trinity.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: March 01, 2020, 07:48:25 AM »John 20:28, is that all Trinitarians can quote? Its not even synoptic gospel, its tainted with trinitarian view. You wont find any of that in the synoptics.Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The meaning is the literal consciousness of the Invisible God is present in the Lord. All the others around have created souls, but if these souls know themselves in the depths, they’re able to identify the Lord is “operated” from an external force, and does not have a created soul. So, are you operated inwardly, and can you identify words arising from one not operated that way? This is how the disciples recognized Jesus, not because He cajoled them to leave their nets. In the end it is also wrong to call God “Father,” and to call the Lord, “Son.” These are words derived from those stuck in family models, to comprehend personalities.
Even if that is stated and not rebuked, it does not mean the Trinity is true. Jesus is a "god" but he is not "God" the father, and he was given all authority from the father, so he is not unlike God the Father, but he is the son god of the Father.
Posted by: Aaron Massey
« on: February 29, 2020, 09:55:15 PM »I would find it funny that non-Trinitarians cannot identify what/who Jesus is without being contradictory if it were not so damning. You said it yourself "J<span style="font-size: 12pt;">esus is the only begotten God </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">(Joh 1:18 NASB)<span> </span>“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">”
You have a 0% biblical view on this.
John 20:28 "My Lord and my God." Jesus did not rebuke him for worship or calling him God. Is Jesus Thomas' God but not ours?
Jesus said that if you do not know him you do not have the love of the Father in you and you are not going to go to heaven.
I hope you prayerfully re-consider your view.
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John 20:28, is that all Trinitarians can quote? Its not even synoptic gospel, its tainted with trinitarian view. You wont find any of that in the synoptics.
Even if that is stated and not rebuked, it does not mean the Trinity is true. Jesus is a "god" but he is not "God" the father, and he was given all authority from the father, so he is not unlike God the Father, but he is the son god of the Father.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: February 26, 2020, 10:57:37 AM »I am a Christian trying to explore the doctrine of the trinity and I have a question which I would like to ask you please. I do not have any philosophical or theological training. I am just a thinker looking for answers. I would be very grateful if you would have time to read my thoughts below and offer a response please. If you think I am way off track, please say so and be as frank as you like. Thank you very much in advance. Looking forward to hearing from you.ph: The NT writers were not imbued with Aristotelian philosophy and didn't analyse things in terms of substance or ontology.
Masih
The NT writers were not imbued with Aristotelian philosophy and didn't analyse things in terms of substance or ontology. Instead they thought about things in terms of function - for example, they thought of God as creator, sustainer, ruler, judge, etc. but didn't speculate about his abstract qualities such as the inner structure of His being or personality. Thus if one of the NT writers had been asked "Is Jesus God?", he probably would not have understood the question. To his mind it would have sounded as bizarre as it would do to a modern western person being asked "What does the colour red smell like?" This explains why the NT never attempted to define God in the same terms as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Definition. The NT authors simply never asked themselves the sorts of questions the Nicene Creed attempted to answer. The theologians who formulated the Nicene Creed were deeply influenced by Aristotelian philosophy and so their minds naturally probed into the ontological relationship between God & Jesus, whereas the NT writers thought more about the functional relationship between God & Jesus (Sender/'Sent One', Commissioner/Messiah, Father/Son, etc.) The 4th century theologians who formulated the doctrine of the trinity made accurate inferences from the biblical data, but the doctrine of the trinity is not necessarily the best or ultimate definition of God - it is only one among several equally valid lenses through which God may be viewed, depending on the way your mind works.
For background, this thought is in repsonse to a question posed by a biblical unitarian in a dbate about the trinity. He asked: Assuming the doctrine of the trinity is true and central to the Christian religion and that Jesus and his apostles believed it, why do you think they “held back” from teaching it to us in a clear/straightfoward/explicit way, as they did so many other doctrines they believed to be important?
Examples of clear/straightforward/explicit teachings: God is one; God is holy; God is light; God is love; YHWH is God’s name; God created heaven and earth; Jesus died for our sins; God raised Jesus from the dead; Jesus sits at the right hand of God; Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and Son of God; the greatest commandments are Love God and Love neighbor.
What I mean is, do you ever wonder why in 1 Cor.8:6 Paul didn’t say something like, “To us there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons, one essence.” If that is what Paul believed (and wanted us to believe), why do you think he said something different? Why did he speak of the Lord Jesus in this text as someone other than (or distinct from) the “one God”?
Or how about… “You have heard it was said, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one', but I say to you, Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one being yet three persons”?
Don't you find it surprising/odd (on any level) that the alleged “central” doctrine of Christianity was not plainly and continuously taught by its founder (Jesus) or the apostles?
jc: This not only compartmentalizes people, but it presumes original thought is impossible, i.e. that without exposure to philosophers one could not philosophize.
ph: Instead they thought about things in terms of function - for example, they thought of God as creator, sustainer, ruler, judge, etc. but didn't speculate about his abstract qualities such as the inner structure of His being or personality.
jc: This is what they said, but you don’t know what they thought. This has not been known, but the prophets think in layers. Their speech is derived from greater knowledge. Humans are trapped saying what is first on their minds. The prophets had other options.
Actually nobody has been thinking about God’s “inner structure” or personality! This is hand-waving, as when people cite “the great works of English literature” that aren’t great. To think about God’s personality would be to understand that opposition is a poor drama.
ph: Thus if one of the NT writers had been asked "Is Jesus God?", he probably would not have understood the question.
jc: They were not asked, and it is because humans around wouldn’t dream of asking that. Humans see only other humans. Their minds have no categories for anything above that. This is why there’s a huge tangle in Christian thinking, seeing Jesus as a man, not God.
ph: To his mind it would have sounded as bizarre as it would do to a modern western person being asked "What does the colour red smell like?"
jc: No, that’s a bizarre question anywhere. You’re trying to limit the prophets, who spoke as they knew to speak to have the effects they wanted. The disciples recognized Jesus as God, and knew their mission was to spend time with Him, and begin to guide the planet.
ph: This explains why the NT never attempted to define God in the same terms as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Definition.
jc: Some of these were from a new wave of hidden prophets, though entangled with the human crowd. They brought out some new truths that were not included in the Bible, but they were also civilization-builders giving the religion the organization it needed to grow.
ph: The NT authors simply never asked themselves the sorts of questions the Nicene Creed attempted to answer.
jc: They did not ask, but it was not simple. A revealing prophet has to believe his own message, but he can turn other directions if necessary (though I have yet to see it proved). Christianity could not be built up front. It needed to seem to have human input later on. There is a saying making the rounds, “You can’t handle the truth!” Well, humans can’t.
ph: The theologians who formulated the Nicene Creed were deeply influenced by Aristotelian philosophy and so their minds naturally probed into the ontological relationship between God & Jesus, whereas the NT writers thought more about the functional relationship between God & Jesus (Sender/'Sent One', Commissioner/Messiah, Father/Son, etc.)
jc: Again this is limiting the prophets, who were the generators of the original philosophies given to man, not just the Bible and other religious teachings. Some of these are atheists too, but if read carefully it is found they secretly support the external God.
ph: The 4th century theologians who formulated the doctrine of the trinity made accurate inferences from the biblical data, but the doctrine of the trinity is not necessarily the best or ultimate definition of God - it is only one among several equally valid lenses through which God may be viewed, depending on the way your mind works.
jc: No, the Trinity is the best and most accessible. Since it is true, we know it came from cognoscenti, not humans. The Trinity is one of Christianity’s contributions to the world. Importantly only the Son speaks. All religions holding God speaks other ways are wrong.
ph: For background, this thought is in response to a question posed by a biblical unitarian in a debate about the trinity. He asked: Assuming the doctrine of the trinity is true and central to the Christian religion and that Jesus and his apostles believed it, why do you think they “held back” from teaching it to us in a clear/straightforward/explicit way, as they did so many other doctrines they believed to be important?
jc: Everything was held back. Nothing was given straightforwardly. The human race is unguided, or as the fable of Eden suggests, they demanded to be their own guides, to be the ones choosing between good and evil without allowing the Creator to give His input.
Jesus and the apostles didn’t just believe the doctrine of the Trinity, they were living it, the disciples recognizing they were speaking with the Lord and that God speaks no other way. The religions posit God speaks directly to creatures but there’s no mechanism for it.
ph: Examples of clear/straightforward/explicit teachings: God is one;
jc: Christians say they believe there is only one God, but they don’t understand the meaning of the term “God” in a significant way. They think of themselves writ large.
ph: God is holy;
jc: Christians do not accept that God is holy, or they would be building reverence into their lives. There are no books about how to live reverently, i.e. how to imbue one’s surrounding social environment with positive energy, thankful to God for being alive.
ph: God is light;
jc: How could anything be more vague than this? God is not photons, and Christians have no more specific ideas about the word. In the East they teach of enlightenment, but the West rejects this entirely, even though Jesus said “the whole body shall be full of light.”
ph: God is love;
jc: Beings of hate are unfit to think about beings of love, nor have Christians made love practical in everyday life. The signs they dislike and distrust their neighbors are everywhere, one of the most obvious that snow blowers and other tools are not shared.
ph: YHWH is God’s name;
jc: Actually this is the name God gave to man for Himself. He may have other Names. In the long-term this could be seen as a Name for the Father or Invisible God, although only the Incarnation could have bestowed this Name, and only He could possibly answer to it.
ph: God created heaven and earth;
jc: Christians do not believe this. They conceive that God snapped His fingers and Heaven and Earth appeared, which means they don’t accept God made things in the way science is discovering. They expect a new Earth, once they have disposed of this one.
ph: Jesus died for our sins;
jc: Jesus died from humans sins, not for them. Christianity is the religion of perpetually crucifying Christ. They’d do it all again, in fact they have, only they do not know it yet.
ph: God raised Jesus from the dead;
jc: No, the disciples claimed Jesus raised Himself from the dead. They were expert at generating legends, but legends are not real. If God doesn’t have this power the Christians will decamp in flocks. They won’t worship a God of only everyday miracles.
ph: Jesus sits at the right hand of God;
jc: This is so vague! How can it be cited as an explicit teaching, except by an indiscriminate and inattentive mind? This is just a restatement of the doctrine of the Trinity, but the Lord is a living extension from the Invisible God, not seated beside Him.
ph: Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and Son of God;
jc: Each of these terms needs a definition or the sentence is empty. You might say of your soul-mate, “She’s da bomb,” but where people may know the meaning of bomb, they don’t know the meaning of Christ. I usually just say Incarnation, God embodied.
ph: the greatest commandments are Love God and Love neighbor.
jc: Jesus is the king of unfinished sentences. He left humans to make their own decisions what these meant, when with a few quick strokes He could have revolutionized society, ending poverty and establishing the forms of government that work for angels in Heaven.
ph: What I mean is, do you ever wonder why in 1 Cor.8:6 Paul didn’t say something like, “To us there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons, one essence.”
jc: This would’ve been too much organization at the onset of the religion. Men needed to feel they had contributed, so that Christianity was a human/heavenly hybrid they could follow. If the angels teach straight no men can follow, as birds leave no tracks in the sky.
ph: If that is what Paul believed (and wanted us to believe), why do you think he said something different?
jc: Paul was the popularizer, achieving what the direct disciples could not. Whether they were limited by their nature or their role, is still a question of mine. The religion is really Paulianity, not following Christ directly but following Paul’s private interpretations of it.
ph: Why did he speak of the Lord Jesus in this text as someone other than (or distinct from) the “one God”?
jc: I suppose with a close study I’d have to decide Paul’s stature, but I’ve been leaving it for others to muse about. Paul had a certain fire and merit, but was he a puppet or tool of the Holy Spirit as the story would have us believe? Or was he an especially crafty actor?
ph: Or how about… “You have heard it was said, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one', but I say to you, Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one being yet three persons”?
jc: The doctrine of the Trinity is definitely post-Bible, but is the right way to think about the Deity. Before the Incarnation appears so that some of God’s Personality is seen, it’s impossible in a practical way to discuss the Trinity. But Jesus didn’t look much like God.
ph: Don't you find it surprising/odd (on any level) that the alleged “central” doctrine of Christianity was not plainly and continuously taught by its founder (Jesus) or the apostles?
jc: I find it surprising/odd on many levels that none of the religions contains either truth or guidance. These were edifices built only to swirl around humans with their desires, aiding civilization but pointing neither to salvation nor to the best mode of life for them.
Posted by: Robert Harris
« on: December 20, 2010, 10:28:50 AM »I would find it funny that non-Trinitarians cannot identify what/who Jesus is without being contradictory if it were not so damning. You said it yourself "Jesus is the only begotten God (Joh 1:18 NASB) “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
You have a 0% biblical view on this.
John 20:28 "My Lord and my God." Jesus did not rebuke him for worship or calling him God. Is Jesus Thomas' God but not ours?
Jesus said that if you do not know him you do not have the love of the Father in you and you are not going to go to heaven.
I hope you prayerfully re-consider your view.
You have a 0% biblical view on this.
John 20:28 "My Lord and my God." Jesus did not rebuke him for worship or calling him God. Is Jesus Thomas' God but not ours?
Jesus said that if you do not know him you do not have the love of the Father in you and you are not going to go to heaven.
I hope you prayerfully re-consider your view.
Posted by: hopeinul
« on: December 20, 2010, 09:57:26 AM »Amen let us all be lead by the Spirit of God.
My view makes 100% biblical view but 0% Trinitarian views.
My view is , as well as the bible says, there is one God the Father.
Jesus calls the Father the only true God.
Like us Jesus is not a creation of God but the Son of God form the beginning. Since he is the Son of God he has the attributes of God.
Jesus is the only begotten God (Joh 1:18 NASB) “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
The Father is God by identity but Jesus is God by nature which he gets from him Father as a begotten God “on Joh 17:5 Jesus says “ And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” And he later explains where he gets his glory from in Joh 17:2 “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:” Even before the foundation of the world the Glory Jesus had was given him by His Father
The scripture repeatedly says God the Father because that is who the Father is. That is the Father is God by Identity. But nowhere does the scripture say God the Son (only the Trinitarians do) because Jesus is not by identity God but by nature. But he is by identity the Son of God that is why when you read the scriptures Jesus is often called the Son of God. But Jesus has the nature of God and shares all attributes of God.
The Father is greater than Jesus. Even Jesus has said that the Father is greater than Me. (Joh 14:28 NKJV) You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, [84] 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
The Father is greater than the Son:
- Before the incarnation
- (Joh 1:18) "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [6] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." Someone in the bosom must be less than someone who has the bosom. Bosom shows care. So Jesus was in the care of his Father before the incarnation.
- (Joh 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John is describing who Jesus is so that we would know that he is not just a mere man. One way of identification of Jesus is that he was with God. If Jesus is equal with God what is the point of saying that he was with God. If someone gets respect or glory because he was with someone else, it shows that the later person is greater than the former. But if both are equal then saying that someone was with someone would be just providing information. But John wasn't just giving information but rather giving glory to Jesus by saying that he was with God in the beginning, and we should respect Jesus more because he was with God.
- (Php 2:6) Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The Greek word translated equality can also mean like. Here the writer is saying that Jesus can live just as God is living because he is by nature God. But the writer compares Jesus with someone called God. Why is this other God used as a reference? Why would Jesus grasp to be equal with God if he is equal with God? This is yet another indication that Jesus has the nature of God and he can live as God himself. But also that Jesus can give up his divine nature to have a humane nature for our sake. Identity cannot be given up but nature can be. Jesus did not give up his identity which is the Son of God or the Word (Logos) but his divine nature. So the Word (identity) was God (nature) and the Word (identity) became flesh (nature).
- · (Joh 16:28) I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the worl
d and go to the Father." This shows that Jesus did not come from himself or on his own authority. He has a source and that is the Father not a triune God.
- Obviously while he was on earth.
- After his resurrection
· (Joh 20:17) Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "
Jesus calls The Father My God after his resurrection showing that the Father is greater that himself. If Jesus was equal with the Father why would he call him My God? The answer is he wouldn’t.
4. At the end of everything
· (1Co 15:28) Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
So my friend stop worshiping a triune God (invention of the mind which is an idol) and worship the Father the only true God trough Jesus Christ our Lord by the help of the Holy Spirit.
Posted by: Robert Harris
« on: December 16, 2010, 07:57:02 AM »Ok so when Jesus takes the names of God, the attributes of God, does things that only God can do, Jesus isn't claiming to be God but just some lesser god? Your view makes absolutely no biblical sense whatsoever.
Jesus & the Holy Spirit are not created beings, are eternal, do only the things God can do.
I am sure you are aware that you did not answer any of my biblical data. See, you do not know Jesus therefore you do not know the Father. In other words, you do not know God.
Until you can show some biblical support for your view that Jesus is not God then there is nothing more for me to say here. Honestly, if you just research a little more you will come to a real understanding. Set aside your biases (like I had to, and everyone else) and just be lead by the Spirit.
Jesus & the Holy Spirit are not created beings, are eternal, do only the things God can do.
I am sure you are aware that you did not answer any of my biblical data. See, you do not know Jesus therefore you do not know the Father. In other words, you do not know God.
Until you can show some biblical support for your view that Jesus is not God then there is nothing more for me to say here. Honestly, if you just research a little more you will come to a real understanding. Set aside your biases (like I had to, and everyone else) and just be lead by the Spirit.
Posted by: hopeinul
« on: December 16, 2010, 12:34:50 AM »First of all I do not have a false view of God.
The bible says that God created every thing through Jesus Christ. (Heb 1:2) "...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds". So you see my friend it was God working trough his Son. When the bible says every thing is created in Christ, it is saying that the Father created every thing through his Son. The bible says that the Son can do nothing on his own but only what the Father does through him. (Joh 5:19) Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
Not only did God created everything through his Son but he is also saving the world through his Son. (Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
You are just pointing to some characters of a divine nature to prove that Jesus is God. But as I have said previously since Jesus is the Son of God he has the nature of God or he is the exact image of the one true God. (Heb 1:3) " who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person." So what God is the word is because he is the express image of God. We are also called to share in the divine nature of God, (2Pe 1:4) " ... that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature...".
I don't have any false view of God. But I think you do. You are worshiping a God called the Trinity, an invention of the mind. But Jesus said that, (Joh 4:23) "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him". We worship Jesus as the Son of God. If you accept, believe or worship Jesus you are actually doing that to the Father who sent him. (Joh 12:44) Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
We worship the God the Father through Jesus Christ by the help of the Holy Spirit.
As for your question who is Jesus, he is the son of the living God ((Mat 16:16) Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.")
As for the Holy Spirit it is the Spirit of the Living God which is given as a gift for those who believed in Jesus.
May God help us to know him well.
And I have looked into the material that you suggested, but it is sad to see such an intellectual to repeat these old fable. But of course the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God and not by intellect. (1Co 2:11)... Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
The bible says that God created every thing through Jesus Christ. (Heb 1:2) "...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds". So you see my friend it was God working trough his Son. When the bible says every thing is created in Christ, it is saying that the Father created every thing through his Son. The bible says that the Son can do nothing on his own but only what the Father does through him. (Joh 5:19) Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
Not only did God created everything through his Son but he is also saving the world through his Son. (Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
You are just pointing to some characters of a divine nature to prove that Jesus is God. But as I have said previously since Jesus is the Son of God he has the nature of God or he is the exact image of the one true God. (Heb 1:3) " who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person." So what God is the word is because he is the express image of God. We are also called to share in the divine nature of God, (2Pe 1:4) " ... that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature...".
I don't have any false view of God. But I think you do. You are worshiping a God called the Trinity, an invention of the mind. But Jesus said that, (Joh 4:23) "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him". We worship Jesus as the Son of God. If you accept, believe or worship Jesus you are actually doing that to the Father who sent him. (Joh 12:44) Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
We worship the God the Father through Jesus Christ by the help of the Holy Spirit.
As for your question who is Jesus, he is the son of the living God ((Mat 16:16) Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.")
As for the Holy Spirit it is the Spirit of the Living God which is given as a gift for those who believed in Jesus.
May God help us to know him well.
And I have looked into the material that you suggested, but it is sad to see such an intellectual to repeat these old fable. But of course the things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God and not by intellect. (1Co 2:11)... Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
Posted by: Robert Harris
« on: December 15, 2010, 08:31:23 AM »hopeinul wrote: I did not miss Majesty's point.
When the bible says that God is one it means that the Father is one because1Co 8:6 says that there is one God the Father, and Eph 4:6 says that their is one God and Father of all. Do you think the bible is mistaken when it says that the Father is the Only true God (Joh 17:3). Ever creature should acknowledge that the Father is the only true God as Jesus acknowledged.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God and three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but the Bible says repeatedly there is one God the Father (one person).
Our Lord Jesus is Son of Our God and Father. The blessed Holy Spirit who dwells in us is the Spirit of our God and Father. This is very different from saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God himself. Nowhere the bible says explicitly that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible says that Jesus has the nature of God ( Jon 1:1, Phil 2:6) but his identity is repeatedly confirmed as the Son of God, the Word of God, the Power and Wisdom of God, the exact image of God ...
So there is only one God and that is the Father.
There is one Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
There is one Spirit, the spirit of God
Eph 4:4-6
why is this difficult to accept? I think because we have accepted the doctrine of trinity as true without first questioning it.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:3 Through him all things wee made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jesus is the Word, is God, and through Jesus all things were created.
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Why didn't Jesus rebuke him for calling him God?
Who created all things?
Isaiah 44:24 "...I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens who spread out the earth by myself"
Is the bible contradicting itself when it says that through Jesus all things were made and then in Isaiah says that God created it all by himself? Of course not. The NT reveals that Jesus is God!
Who is the first and the last?
Isaiah 44:6 "...I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
Revelations 1:17-18 [Jesus speaking] "..."Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
Ah, so do we have another contradiction? Of course not! This is just the bible telling us Jesus is God!
Should we bow to another God or god?
Exodus 34:14 don't prostrate before another god.
Philippians 2:10 at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth
I could go on and on and on. If anyone has accepted something without questioning it I think it is you and your false view of God. What do you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit are anyway?
Dr. Craig has a lot of resources on the Trinity as well. I pray that you will look over them and look closer into the doctrine of the Trinity.
John 14:7 says if you know Jesus you know the Father. In John 15 Jesus states that if you do not remain in him you will be cut off thrown away and wither and these branches are thrown into the fire.
Posted by: hopeinul
« on: December 15, 2010, 07:53:49 AM »I did not miss Majesty's point.
When the bible says that God is one it means that the Father is one because1Co 8:6 says that there is one God the Father, and Eph 4:6 says that their is one God and Father of all. Do you think the bible is mistaken when it says that the Father is the Only true God (Joh 17:3). Ever creature should acknowledge that the Father is the only true God as Jesus acknowledged.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God and three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but the Bible says repeatedly there is one God the Father (one person).
Our Lord Jesus is Son of Our God and Father. The blessed Holy Spirit who dwells in us is the Spirit of our God and Father. This is very different from saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God himself. Nowhere the bible says explicitly that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible says that Jesus has the nature of God ( Jon 1:1, Phil 2:6) but his identity is repeatedly confirmed as the Son of God, the Word of God, the Power and Wisdom of God, the exact image of God ...
So there is only one God and that is the Father.
There is one Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
There is one Spirit, the spirit of God
Eph 4:4-6
why is this difficult to accept? I think because we have accepted the doctrine of trinity as true without first questioning it.
When the bible says that God is one it means that the Father is one because1Co 8:6 says that there is one God the Father, and Eph 4:6 says that their is one God and Father of all. Do you think the bible is mistaken when it says that the Father is the Only true God (Joh 17:3). Ever creature should acknowledge that the Father is the only true God as Jesus acknowledged.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God and three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but the Bible says repeatedly there is one God the Father (one person).
Our Lord Jesus is Son of Our God and Father. The blessed Holy Spirit who dwells in us is the Spirit of our God and Father. This is very different from saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God himself. Nowhere the bible says explicitly that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible says that Jesus has the nature of God ( Jon 1:1, Phil 2:6) but his identity is repeatedly confirmed as the Son of God, the Word of God, the Power and Wisdom of God, the exact image of God ...
So there is only one God and that is the Father.
There is one Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
There is one Spirit, the spirit of God
Eph 4:4-6
why is this difficult to accept? I think because we have accepted the doctrine of trinity as true without first questioning it.
Posted by: Robert Harris
« on: December 14, 2010, 08:16:15 AM »hopeinul wrote: The bible says their is only one God the Father (1Co 8:6, Joh 17:3 etc) and this God has one and only Son, Jesus Christ, who as a son has the nature of his Father (Joh 1:3, Joh 1:14). He he different from creation because he is the Son of God and because by him all things were created. He is the only Son of his Father to whom he is subjected to (1Co 15:28) and who is greater than himself (Joh 14:28).
Nowhere the scripture says their is one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But that there is one God, the Father who has one Son, Jesus Christ, and a spirit called the Holy Spirit. I really don't understand why this is hard to understand and fabricate a doctrine of trinity.
God only had one Son but he send his only Son to have many sons. we were simply creature of God but by the work of the Son of God and the Holy Spirit we now have become the sons of God that is the Father. So now God has many sons.
The bible is coherent and clear about the relations of the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the holy Spirit the Spirit of God.
This is what the apostles believed that there is only one God, the Father, from whom the Son of God and the Holy Spirit came.
The Holy Spirit is considered a person in the NT and is not created.
Jesus is obviously a person in the NT and is not created.
The Father is a person in the NT and is not created.
There is one God.
The best conclusion that considers all the Biblical evidence is the Trinity doctrine. I do not know what you are advocating. I think you are missing the point of Majesty's post. If Jesus lowered himself becoming a servant then it means at one time he was not a servant...
Posted by: hopeinul
« on: December 14, 2010, 03:39:24 AM »The bible says their is only one God the Father (1Co 8:6, Joh 17:3 etc) and this God has one and only Son, Jesus Christ, who as a son has the nature of his Father (Joh 1:3, Joh 1:14). He he different from creation because he is the Son of God and because by him all things were created. He is the only Son of his Father to whom he is subjected to (1Co 15:28) and who is greater than himself (Joh 14:28).
Nowhere the scripture says their is one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But that there is one God, the Father who has one Son, Jesus Christ, and a spirit called the Holy Spirit. I really don't understand why this is hard to understand and fabricate a doctrine of trinity.
God only had one Son but he send his only Son to have many sons. we were simply creature of God but by the work of the Son of God and the Holy Spirit we now have become the sons of God that is the Father. So now God has many sons.
The bible is coherent and clear about the relations of the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the holy Spirit the Spirit of God.
This is what the apostles believed that there is only one God, the Father, from whom the Son of God and the Holy Spirit came.
Nowhere the scripture says their is one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But that there is one God, the Father who has one Son, Jesus Christ, and a spirit called the Holy Spirit. I really don't understand why this is hard to understand and fabricate a doctrine of trinity.
God only had one Son but he send his only Son to have many sons. we were simply creature of God but by the work of the Son of God and the Holy Spirit we now have become the sons of God that is the Father. So now God has many sons.
The bible is coherent and clear about the relations of the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the holy Spirit the Spirit of God.
This is what the apostles believed that there is only one God, the Father, from whom the Son of God and the Holy Spirit came.
Posted by: Robert Harris
« on: December 09, 2010, 07:06:50 AM »http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=First-Begotten That is a good explanation of firstborn or begotten
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3439 and http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html for some understanding of the greek word and the latter is also an explanation of what is meant.
tcampen: It does seem like hopeinul is saying Jesus is not God based on what he said there.
Jesus certainly was not a created being according to Christian teaching. John 1:3 states, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." and Colossians 1:16-17 states, "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3439 and http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html for some understanding of the greek word and the latter is also an explanation of what is meant.
tcampen: It does seem like hopeinul is saying Jesus is not God based on what he said there.
Jesus certainly was not a created being according to Christian teaching. John 1:3 states, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." and Colossians 1:16-17 states, "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
Posted by: Timothy Campen
« on: December 09, 2010, 02:48:28 AM »hopeinul wrote: Majesty, verse 6 does not say that Jesus is God but rather he has the nature of God. It is talking about his nature not his identity. As you said, Jesus was not servant form the beginning but he was the Son of God from the beginning because God the Father said this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. Since he is the Son of God he has the same nature as God the Father. Just as a human son has the nature of his father. Jesus was not created but begotten.
From Dictionary.com:
–verb (used with object), be·got or ( Archaic 
) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting. 1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring). 2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
–verb (used with object), be·got or ( Archaic ) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting. 1.
(esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2.
to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
From Webster's:
=2> Definition of BEGET
transitive verb1: to procreate as the father : sire 2: to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
1
: to procreate as the father : sire
2
: to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
So when you say "Jesus was not created but begotten," what exactly do you mean? Because it sure does sound like the same thing per the definition of the word "begotten".