Retired Boards (Archived)
Christian Particularism
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: December 04, 2019, 04:28:35 PM »"The disciples were spinning legends with specific intent, and many humans were trapped, in fact a third of the planet’s population today.."I didn’t say the disciples weren’t tough, and the effect of their actions was the social corral which is Christianity, maintaining a generally placid herd. Those types of actions are very grim and I trust we’re at an end. The disciples might know how to laugh as well.
Why would the apostles subject themselves to such extreme risks of imprisonment, torture, and brutal violent death to spin a legend?
"As I pointed out, we can wait until our sun sputters out, and there will be no documented resurrections, ever occurring."
How do you pretend to know that? Or are,you spinning your own personal legend?
I anticipate the statement would take 20,000 years or more to prove, to the unbelievers. Don’t you talk like that too? I do it all the time. Why are you trapped in the short-term? The resurrection did not happen, the major proof that Jesus did not resume His ministry.
Posted by: Triple Scooby
« on: December 04, 2019, 11:06:18 AM »"The disciples were spinning legends with specific intent, and many humans were trapped, in fact a third of the planet’s population today.."
Why would the apostles subject themselves to such extreme risks of imprisonment, torture, and brutal violent death to spin a legend?
"As I pointed out, we can wait until our sun sputters out, and there will be no documented resurrections, ever occurring."
How do you pretend to know that? Or are,you spinning your own personal legend?
Why would the apostles subject themselves to such extreme risks of imprisonment, torture, and brutal violent death to spin a legend?
"As I pointed out, we can wait until our sun sputters out, and there will be no documented resurrections, ever occurring."
How do you pretend to know that? Or are,you spinning your own personal legend?
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: February 22, 2019, 10:49:28 AM »Your statements are predicated upon a few assumptions:cc: Your statements are predicated upon a few assumptions: 1. That God does not exist. If He does exist, then of course miracles, like resurrections, are possible.
1. That God does not exist. If He does exist, then of course miracles, like resurrections, are possible.
2. Jesus was merely a prophet/teacher, not God.
It's fine, for argument's sake, to have those assumptions (assumption 2 is not really relevant to the resurrection at all). Nonetheless, you need to probe the historical evidence for the resurrection.
We don't need to prove miracles directly. You assert, correctly, that Jesus lived and died. All you need to know show is that he was seen after his death. This is a matter of historical record.
jc: I do not presume this! I’m the last person that would presume this. It is your idea about a wand-waving God that is flawed. God can do all real miracles, not imaginary ones. The planet is great. These bodies are great. Give God some credit for His real work.
Why is it you presume God can do anything He wants? Is it because you are starting with your self-image, and you think if you were God, you could do what you want? God is not a desire-driven one. God does do what He wants, but His magic is constrained by nature.
cc: 2. Jesus was merely a prophet/teacher, not God.
jc: You are not reading my mind very well, and in fact are attacking a straw man, your idea of what I’ve said since you don’t really “see” me or what I’ve been saying. Jesus was God, but did not perform extra miracles not seen when the Lord is not embodied. This may seem weak to you, and it isn’t something that will impress humans to have a God that can’t grant desires or impress them with His might. Only the angels value the Lord.
cc: It's fine, for argument's sake, to have those assumptions (assumption 2 is not really relevant to the resurrection at all). Nonetheless, you need to probe the historical evidence for the resurrection.
jc: The disciples were spinning legends with specific intent, and many humans were trapped, in fact a third of the planet’s population today. As I pointed out, we can wait until our sun sputters out, and there will be no documented resurrections, ever occurring.
cc: We don't need to prove miracles directly. You assert, correctly, that Jesus lived and died. All you need to know show is that he was seen after his death. This is a matter of historical record.
jc: I know there are claims that He was seen. The disciples knew what they were doing. The Christians have been rather slowwitted, not to notice they might have been deceived. Probably God could not reveal the heavenly truths directly, and men needed to be led by the only routes they’d follow. This is why Jesus kept on referring to humans as “sheep.”
Posted by: CorneliusC
« on: February 21, 2019, 11:25:45 PM »The truly interesting question, for someone like yourself, is whether Christianity's core beliefs are true: that Jesus Christ lived, died, and was resurrected. Rather than selectively looking through the Bible for inconsistencies or inaccuracies, it is better to focus your attention on that question.Things the human mind does not understand, enter in a kind of haze, where the mind in question paints the colors he wants or expects to see, having no response to the colors that are actually there. The fault leads to straw men arguments and prejudice, as people try to fit their experience into categories their minds can conceive and have used in the past, without really caring that what they’ve encountered is far beyond those categories.
You’re right this question is of keen interest to me, but though I know Jesus lived and died, I also say He wasn’t resurrected and that resurrections never occur in any corner of the universe. You probably don’t want to wait the five billion years we have remaining on this planet to verify no actual resurrections will ever be documented, so I’d point to a fact that the wise find compelling. Jesus had much more to say in order to guide humanity well, so it is certain that had He actually been resurrected, He’d simply have resumed His ministry. I fault the Christians specifically, for never remarking or even thinking, “We wish Jesus had lived longer so He could have told us more.” For them the death of Christ was the end of the painful experience of needing to confront God’s words.
Your statements are predicated upon a few assumptions:
1. That God does not exist. If He does exist, then of course miracles, like resurrections, are possible.
2. Jesus was merely a prophet/teacher, not God.
It's fine, for argument's sake, to have those assumptions (assumption 2 is not really relevant to the resurrection at all). Nonetheless, you need to probe the historical evidence for the resurrection.
We don't need to prove miracles directly. You assert, correctly, that Jesus lived and died. All you need to know show is that he was seen after his death. This is a matter of historical record.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: February 21, 2019, 10:34:21 AM »The truly interesting question, for someone like yourself, is whether Christianity's core beliefs are true: that Jesus Christ lived, died, and was resurrected. Rather than selectively looking through the Bible for inconsistencies or inaccuracies, it is better to focus your attention on that question.Things the human mind does not understand, enter in a kind of haze, where the mind in question paints the colors he wants or expects to see, having no response to the colors that are actually there. The fault leads to straw men arguments and prejudice, as people try to fit their experience into categories their minds can conceive and have used in the past, without really caring that what they’ve encountered is far beyond those categories.
You’re right this question is of keen interest to me, but though I know Jesus lived and died, I also say He wasn’t resurrected and that resurrections never occur in any corner of the universe. You probably don’t want to wait the five billion years we have remaining on this planet to verify no actual resurrections will ever be documented, so I’d point to a fact that the wise find compelling. Jesus had much more to say in order to guide humanity well, so it is certain that had He actually been resurrected, He’d simply have resumed His ministry. I fault the Christians specifically, for never remarking or even thinking, “We wish Jesus had lived longer so He could have told us more.” For them the death of Christ was the end of the painful experience of needing to confront God’s words.
Posted by: CorneliusC
« on: February 20, 2019, 12:13:24 PM »jayceii, I doubt that many on this forum would argue that the Bible is historically inerrant, or lacks consistency problems. In fact, this has never been the Church's official position (I'm speaking as a Catholic here).
The truly interesting question, for someone like yourself, is whether Christianity's core beliefs are true: that Jesus Christ lived, died, and was resurrected. Rather than selectively looking through the Bible for inconsistencies or inaccuracies, it is better to focus your attention on that question.
I'm happy to discuss the Bible's individual books from a historical perspective, but that's irrelevant to the core truth (or not) of Christianity.
The truly interesting question, for someone like yourself, is whether Christianity's core beliefs are true: that Jesus Christ lived, died, and was resurrected. Rather than selectively looking through the Bible for inconsistencies or inaccuracies, it is better to focus your attention on that question.
I'm happy to discuss the Bible's individual books from a historical perspective, but that's irrelevant to the core truth (or not) of Christianity.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: November 07, 2018, 10:37:44 AM »Christianity hasn’t risen high enough to say that God has been revealed at all. I note the following issues leaving it inadequate as a religion, as if God paid only partial attention. The following is just a list I threw together in a half hour. I’ve got a lot more to say here.
1. The God of the Old Testament supports war, backing the side that pleases Him. Instead one can reason that the Creator of all souls, would want all to dwell in harmony, expecting them to use intellectual power to achieve this, offering guidance if necessary.
2. From a spiritual perspective there’s no justification for sacrifices except bloodlust. Why would the Creator of All, be pleased to see some creatures sacrificing others?
3. Despite repeated miracles from Moses, the children of Israel just grumble and complain. It’s an early proof no miracle satisfies humans long, seen today in computers.
4. The Christians admit prophets came in ancient days, but have illegalized it today. This obviously places them in a position cut off from God’s advice, if He needed to give any.
5. No Christian ever says they wish Jesus could have lived longer, to say more. It’s a proof the Christians do not truly love the Lord, as they claim, but are selfishly motivated.
6. The Bible gives only the instruction to “be fruitful and multiply,” utterly ignoring exponential growth and its consequences, that today put the whole planet into jeopardy.
7. The Ten Commandments mostly reflect human laws, the decisions of selfish parties to protect their interests. No Christian wishes God had revealed more laws, to prevent sin.
8. There’s no direct trace between Paul’s claim to Heaven after one lifetime, to anything that Jesus said. The religion could be called Paulianity, lacking the Lord’s direct blessing.
9. The Bible never mentions God’s real miracles, an awesome human body and a fantastic planet, as if it is known humans would take these for granted, asking for more.
10. The Bible offers no spiritual disciplines for inner purification, in case someone really wanted to render his mind more pure to please God, and not follow selfish aims while expecting Jesus to come and do the work. It’s a major deficiency compared to Hinduism.
11. The God of the Bible appears weak and unaware, not to see the other religions arising in the world and explain them properly. The scene is raw competition between them all.
12. The Bible offers no clear teaching on the soul, what it is, how it is made, or how long it endures. It has no teachings on the nature of the mind, its impurities, or how to purify it.
13. The Bible offers no clear teachings on what Heaven is, what the angels are like, how angelic society differs from human society from their greater capacities, or what the Lord might expect in a good companion. Jesus said the way is difficult, leaving a question mark.
14. The Bible offers no explanations for the source of human contentiousness, or advice on how to overcome it and dwell in harmony. There isn’t even specific help for quarrels.
15. Self-sacrifice is poignant, but not a power. Jesus may only have proved God wants to save the world, not that He has the power to do it.
16. Faith is not demonstrably different from opinion. It’s a shallow function of the mind. It seems the Creator would more likely base salvation on the total soul, than on opinion.
17. There’s been no integration of the Earth’s age into Christian thought. It’s now been revealed by science that the real God made the planet over vast time, but the Christians persist in believing planets can be made in a finger-snap, after they dispose of this one.
18. There’s immense unclarity in Christian thought, whether Heaven is material or immaterial, and whether the soul is material or immaterial. The thinking is similar to the New Age in many ways, as they speak of “body-mind,” not seeing the soul as separable.
19. The lineage of the Lord and prophets is still considered critical, when it should be obvious if God is going to take on a human body, He can be born anywhere He so deigns. Practically this amounts to failure to accept the basic Christian doctrine, that Jesus is Lord. If He is Lord, that is to say God in a body, then He has no physical ties. So it can be shown Christians do not truly believe God can take on a body, whatever their liturgy says.
20. The Bible fails to account for advanced regions of consciousness some are entering, that allow discourse to individuals at first glance seeming comparable to the Lord. I speak specifically of samadhi or enlightenment, as other religions teach, and where examples are seen.
21. Although Jesus said to love the neighbor as oneself, we do not know if God favors universal healthcare, a society that spreads a net to protect the poor, or is even against war.
22. The Bible is disturbingly violent, as if torn from a lion’s den. Infidelity, murder, and other heinous acts abound. How can a real God watch all this, and give no advice about it? What we really want to know, is what the perfectly functional society would look like.
23. There’s something deeply wrong, that Jesus only spoke in parables when writing implements were available. The Lord could have flooded the globe with discourse about divine truths, but chose to mumble vaguely instead. Men were not accepted as intelligent.
24. Jesus is known more for where He failed, than for what He accomplished. It disproves the miracles when you note these would at best be mere magic tricks compared to the weighty requirements of guiding a planet. We have pollution, overpopulation, and resource squandering Jesus did nothing to prevent, while supposedly “walking on water.”
25. Despite warning followers not to believe others claiming to be Him, Jesus left no criteria for how to identify when it was really Him. The disciples also did not list how they “magically knew” it was the Lord calling them, nor how others could recognize Him. Besides speaking authoritatively, we’re given no description how the Lord is different. Had Jesus or the disciples revealed these things, no pretenders could’ve arisen.
1. The God of the Old Testament supports war, backing the side that pleases Him. Instead one can reason that the Creator of all souls, would want all to dwell in harmony, expecting them to use intellectual power to achieve this, offering guidance if necessary.
2. From a spiritual perspective there’s no justification for sacrifices except bloodlust. Why would the Creator of All, be pleased to see some creatures sacrificing others?
3. Despite repeated miracles from Moses, the children of Israel just grumble and complain. It’s an early proof no miracle satisfies humans long, seen today in computers.
4. The Christians admit prophets came in ancient days, but have illegalized it today. This obviously places them in a position cut off from God’s advice, if He needed to give any.
5. No Christian ever says they wish Jesus could have lived longer, to say more. It’s a proof the Christians do not truly love the Lord, as they claim, but are selfishly motivated.
6. The Bible gives only the instruction to “be fruitful and multiply,” utterly ignoring exponential growth and its consequences, that today put the whole planet into jeopardy.
7. The Ten Commandments mostly reflect human laws, the decisions of selfish parties to protect their interests. No Christian wishes God had revealed more laws, to prevent sin.
8. There’s no direct trace between Paul’s claim to Heaven after one lifetime, to anything that Jesus said. The religion could be called Paulianity, lacking the Lord’s direct blessing.
9. The Bible never mentions God’s real miracles, an awesome human body and a fantastic planet, as if it is known humans would take these for granted, asking for more.
10. The Bible offers no spiritual disciplines for inner purification, in case someone really wanted to render his mind more pure to please God, and not follow selfish aims while expecting Jesus to come and do the work. It’s a major deficiency compared to Hinduism.
11. The God of the Bible appears weak and unaware, not to see the other religions arising in the world and explain them properly. The scene is raw competition between them all.
12. The Bible offers no clear teaching on the soul, what it is, how it is made, or how long it endures. It has no teachings on the nature of the mind, its impurities, or how to purify it.
13. The Bible offers no clear teachings on what Heaven is, what the angels are like, how angelic society differs from human society from their greater capacities, or what the Lord might expect in a good companion. Jesus said the way is difficult, leaving a question mark.
14. The Bible offers no explanations for the source of human contentiousness, or advice on how to overcome it and dwell in harmony. There isn’t even specific help for quarrels.
15. Self-sacrifice is poignant, but not a power. Jesus may only have proved God wants to save the world, not that He has the power to do it.
16. Faith is not demonstrably different from opinion. It’s a shallow function of the mind. It seems the Creator would more likely base salvation on the total soul, than on opinion.
17. There’s been no integration of the Earth’s age into Christian thought. It’s now been revealed by science that the real God made the planet over vast time, but the Christians persist in believing planets can be made in a finger-snap, after they dispose of this one.
18. There’s immense unclarity in Christian thought, whether Heaven is material or immaterial, and whether the soul is material or immaterial. The thinking is similar to the New Age in many ways, as they speak of “body-mind,” not seeing the soul as separable.
19. The lineage of the Lord and prophets is still considered critical, when it should be obvious if God is going to take on a human body, He can be born anywhere He so deigns. Practically this amounts to failure to accept the basic Christian doctrine, that Jesus is Lord. If He is Lord, that is to say God in a body, then He has no physical ties. So it can be shown Christians do not truly believe God can take on a body, whatever their liturgy says.
20. The Bible fails to account for advanced regions of consciousness some are entering, that allow discourse to individuals at first glance seeming comparable to the Lord. I speak specifically of samadhi or enlightenment, as other religions teach, and where examples are seen.
21. Although Jesus said to love the neighbor as oneself, we do not know if God favors universal healthcare, a society that spreads a net to protect the poor, or is even against war.
22. The Bible is disturbingly violent, as if torn from a lion’s den. Infidelity, murder, and other heinous acts abound. How can a real God watch all this, and give no advice about it? What we really want to know, is what the perfectly functional society would look like.
23. There’s something deeply wrong, that Jesus only spoke in parables when writing implements were available. The Lord could have flooded the globe with discourse about divine truths, but chose to mumble vaguely instead. Men were not accepted as intelligent.
24. Jesus is known more for where He failed, than for what He accomplished. It disproves the miracles when you note these would at best be mere magic tricks compared to the weighty requirements of guiding a planet. We have pollution, overpopulation, and resource squandering Jesus did nothing to prevent, while supposedly “walking on water.”
25. Despite warning followers not to believe others claiming to be Him, Jesus left no criteria for how to identify when it was really Him. The disciples also did not list how they “magically knew” it was the Lord calling them, nor how others could recognize Him. Besides speaking authoritatively, we’re given no description how the Lord is different. Had Jesus or the disciples revealed these things, no pretenders could’ve arisen.