Retired Boards (Archived)
Incarnation
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: November 19, 2019, 01:29:11 PM »jayceeii:ae: Based upon your above response, which I have color coded (my responses are color coded to match yours), you have expressed the following sentiments:
Based upon your above response, which I have color coded (my responses are color coded to match yours), you have expressed the following sentiments:
1, the Bible has ugly roots.
2. If a person give God the credit, that is a bad thing to do.
3, You regard Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible as the shoddy Bible.
4. You do not interact with me regarding scripture (and I assume you don't interact with anybody else as you seem to be posting to yourself in thread after thread on this website) because, to quote you: "I interact only with God, not with you."
Since your position is that Almighty God Jehovah should not be given the credit, and since you've gone to such pains to describe God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, in disparaging terms such as "shoddy" with ugly roots--although that hasn't stopped you from interacting "only with God," I will tell you what I will do: I will make you very happy by no longer posting on this website. Apparently you enjoy posting to yourself. It seems you have succeeded in running just about everybody else off.
You show only contempt for those who defend the Bible. Your attitude is arrogant and insulting.
Farewell.
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
1, the Bible has ugly roots.
jc: Probably the ugliest root is the juvenile command to “be fruitful and multiply,” when overpopulation is the great scourge making modern man into a veritable plague of locusts. A God who could only say this didn’t have much to say, or could find no listeners.
ae: 2. If a person give God the credit, that is a bad thing to do.
jc: Your existential posture is absurd, believing God will enfold you back into His Mind. You also appear to be a flatterer, saying you’ll let God be God, but fighting Him anyway.
ae: 3, You regard Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible as the shoddy Bible.
jc: It’s about time someone noticed after thousands of years, the Bible neither guides nor saves.
ae: 4. You do not interact with me regarding scripture (and I assume you don't interact with anybody else as you seem to be posting to yourself in thread after thread on this website) because, to quote you: "I interact only with God, not with you."
jc: You are the one who says he will be taken back into God’s Mind. If so, then I can only speak to God’s memory of you, as He recreates you. You’ve lost anything that is just yours. This is just a consequence of your propositions, if God is going to absorb the people then only God remains.
ae: Since your position is that Almighty God Jehovah should not be given the credit, and since you've gone to such pains to describe God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, in disparaging terms such as "shoddy" with ugly roots--although that hasn't stopped you from interacting "only with God," I will tell you what I will do: I will make you very happy by no longer posting on this website.
jc: It isn’t my website, and it’s a free world.
ae: Apparently you enjoy posting to yourself.
jc: My posts are respectful and logical, but no one stays with me for very long.
ae: It seems you have succeeded in running just about everybody else off.
jc: It must be God’s Will. He’s withdrawn them back into His Mind.
ae: You show only contempt for those who defend the Bible.
jc: No, not contempt, logic. The Bible is only rumors and innuendo, little more.
ae: Your attitude is arrogant and insulting.
jc: No, not arrogant. Probably I’m nudging the truth closer than you want it nudged. Also not insulting. After a few decades the situation has just become a bit humorous to me.
ae: Farewell.
jc: Adios.
ae: "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
jc: Like Jesus said, it isn’t enough to cry “Lord, Lord.” One must also have God in mind.
Posted by: Alter2Ego
« on: November 19, 2019, 01:20:04 AM »jayceeii:Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies." And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture. Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand. Notice below what he ask God to do:ae: Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies."
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)
QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII: Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection). Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?
I look forward to your response to my questions.
Alter2Ego
jc: Strangely, you are in a position fit to destroy Christianity utterly, having traced the logic of the Bible to its ugly roots. Instead you staunchly defend it, unable to rise above words you have seen and the big movements among ignorant creatures these spawned. Think about it this way, why isn’t your theory trumpeted by every preacher to attract new converts? Think about a Christianity consistent with your observations. The new convert comes. The preacher greets him gladly, saying, “Welcome to the religion of annihilation in God’s Mind. He’s going to suck you up and spit you back out, like irrigation for His sinuses. Don’t think about immortality, God is all. He’ll tuck you back in His underarm.”
ae: And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture.
jc: Finally someone found the Bad News in the Bible, although it’s been touted as “Good News for Modern Man.” You can ask this question too, if God is going to retain people in His memory, and restore them but without their negative tendencies, why did He not bestow them without negative tendencies to begin with? And how could God endure the negative tendencies of people in Himself? And if these negative tendencies are stripped away, how can you say it is the same person? Men would die if they did not have their greed.
ae: Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand.
jc: Ha, the major point of the Book of Job is that Job needed to beg from God since any possible friends denied him. That book sets forth the whole ugly scene of capitalism, that you’d better pray to God for help since the neighbor never will, even Christians sitting in the same pews. All the help Job needed was beside him, in these friends that denied him.
ae: Notice below what he ask God to do:
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)
jc: I’ve thought about this too, for instance it would be a lot easier for me simply to appear after the Judgment, rather than to wait tediously monitoring it. If Job wanted to wait, it does not imply he was wanting to be absorbed. He wanted just to be set aside.
ae: QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII: Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection).
jc: Ha, this is a shallow interpretation of this word “remember,” whereas among living persons this merely means to look at a person again, as they continue their existence. In general blissful persons wish to remain dead as short a time as possible, since they have so much fun in embodiment. Job was in a dark era, and seems to have asked for a break.
ae: Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?
jc: There’s another simple system, not in the Bible or anywhere else, God created the souls separate from Himself and grants them eternal existence. Unfortunately this means the rising souls who have negative traits, retain these traits. If all the people were wise, they would not want to see these unwise people again, and if those unwise people were wise they wouldn’t want to see themselves again. Generally this is called weakness and corruption in the souls, the Original Sin from the Bible. Yet I think the wise have good traits, and these abide with them eternally, their friends grateful to meet them any time.
Your argument has one other flaw I could mention, that you’re forgetting the friends would also need God to restore their ability to recognize you. Your argument presumes your friends retain an ability to recognize you while you have sacrificed your entire being to be enfolded in God again. Instead God reigns over all, your friends as well as yourself.
ae: I look forward to your response to my questions.
jc: As you remain a staunch defender of the shoddy Bible, you do not really look forward to my responses. Instead, you give God the credit, that as He enfolds you entirely into Himself as you crave, He will restore you to a state where you feel as if you look forward to the responses to my questions. In other words, I interact only with God, not with you.
Based upon your above response, which I have color coded (my responses are color coded to match yours), you have expressed the following sentiments:
1, the Bible has ugly roots.
2. If a person give God the credit, that is a bad thing to do.
3, You regard Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible as the shoddy Bible.
4. You do not interact with me regarding scripture (and I assume you don't interact with anybody else as you seem to be posting to yourself in thread after thread on this website) because, to quote you: "I interact only with God, not with you."
Since your position is that Almighty God Jehovah should not be given the credit, and since you've gone to such pains to describe God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, in disparaging terms such as "shoddy" with ugly roots--although that hasn't stopped you from interacting "only with God," I will tell you what I will do: I will make you very happy by no longer posting on this website. Apparently you enjoy posting to yourself. It seems you have succeeded in running just about everybody else off.
You show only contempt for those who defend the Bible. Your attitude is arrogant and insulting.
Farewell.
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: October 26, 2019, 02:07:46 PM »Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies." And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture. Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand. Notice below what he ask God to do:ae: Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies."
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)
QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII: Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection). Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?
I look forward to your response to my questions.
Alter2Ego
jc: Strangely, you are in a position fit to destroy Christianity utterly, having traced the logic of the Bible to its ugly roots. Instead you staunchly defend it, unable to rise above words you have seen and the big movements among ignorant creatures these spawned. Think about it this way, why isn’t your theory trumpeted by every preacher to attract new converts? Think about a Christianity consistent with your observations. The new convert comes. The preacher greets him gladly, saying, “Welcome to the religion of annihilation in God’s Mind. He’s going to suck you up and spit you back out, like irrigation for His sinuses. Don’t think about immortality, God is all. He’ll tuck you back in His underarm.”
ae: And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture.
jc: Finally someone found the Bad News in the Bible, although it’s been touted as “Good News for Modern Man.” You can ask this question too, if God is going to retain people in His memory, and restore them but without their negative tendencies, why did He not bestow them without negative tendencies to begin with? And how could God endure the negative tendencies of people in Himself? And if these negative tendencies are stripped away, how can you say it is the same person? Men would die if they did not have their greed.
ae: Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand.
jc: Ha, the major point of the Book of Job is that Job needed to beg from God since any possible friends denied him. That book sets forth the whole ugly scene of capitalism, that you’d better pray to God for help since the neighbor never will, even Christians sitting in the same pews. All the help Job needed was beside him, in these friends that denied him.
ae: Notice below what he ask God to do:
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)
jc: I’ve thought about this too, for instance it would be a lot easier for me simply to appear after the Judgment, rather than to wait tediously monitoring it. If Job wanted to wait, it does not imply he was wanting to be absorbed. He wanted just to be set aside.
ae: QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII: Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection).
jc: Ha, this is a shallow interpretation of this word “remember,” whereas among living persons this merely means to look at a person again, as they continue their existence. In general blissful persons wish to remain dead as short a time as possible, since they have so much fun in embodiment. Job was in a dark era, and seems to have asked for a break.
ae: Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?
jc: There’s another simple system, not in the Bible or anywhere else, God created the souls separate from Himself and grants them eternal existence. Unfortunately this means the rising souls who have negative traits, retain these traits. If all the people were wise, they would not want to see these unwise people again, and if those unwise people were wise they wouldn’t want to see themselves again. Generally this is called weakness and corruption in the souls, the Original Sin from the Bible. Yet I think the wise have good traits, and these abide with them eternally, their friends grateful to meet them any time.
Your argument has one other flaw I could mention, that you’re forgetting the friends would also need God to restore their ability to recognize you. Your argument presumes your friends retain an ability to recognize you while you have sacrificed your entire being to be enfolded in God again. Instead God reigns over all, your friends as well as yourself.
ae: I look forward to your response to my questions.
jc: As you remain a staunch defender of the shoddy Bible, you do not really look forward to my responses. Instead, you give God the credit, that as He enfolds you entirely into Himself as you crave, He will restore you to a state where you feel as if you look forward to the responses to my questions. In other words, I interact only with God, not with you.
Posted by: Alter2Ego
« on: October 05, 2019, 10:42:30 PM »jayceeii:Indeed, the neither the Bible nor any other religious text contains a clear teaching about the soul. Lay Christians, at least in the Lutheran church as I know from experience, do think about the soul as distinct from the body at times, but at other times they expect their bodies to be raised after Judgment. The reason for this ambivalence is that the minds are not experienced in spiritual realities, even to know themselves, to think clearly about this most vital of all topics. Mm’s theory is that the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies. This is not church doctrine, but something he was making up on the fly in response to some of my challenges. Do you agree with mm’s theory or do you have another of your own, as to how a dead personality can be restored?You're begging the question, since this is the controversy between us. I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date. The fact is you do not really know what death is. You're thinking of a dead body, but you do not know what happened to the person inside the body. It is invalid to attempt to make reference to “common knowledge” about death, when this does not exist. Dead bodies are seen, not the inner processes.jayceeii:
There is no scriptural support for your belief that, to quote you: "the soul separates from the body at death." According to scripture, the soul is the very same person who died. I will provide scripture to support what I just stated after I hear back from you.
In general people who don’t mind “handing off” their personalities to God or to annihilation, are not “awake” in the sense of valuing their own personal presence.
Yes, I agree with Maxximiliann that "the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies." And let me make it clear that it is not mere theory but is based upon scripture. Recall what Job stated when he begged the Almighty to end his life, due to his terrible suffering at Satan's hand. Notice below what he ask God to do:
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (Job 14:13 -- New International Version)
QUESTION #3 TO JAYCEEII: Job asked God to not leave him in the grave but to instead remember him (resurrection). Upon being resurrected back to life, how do you expect anyone (including Job) would be recognizable to friends and family if God did not have the ability to retain memory of each of our personality and appearance, in order to resurrect an accurate depiction of the person who had died?
I look forward to your response to my questions.
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Posted by: Alter2Ego
« on: October 05, 2019, 10:05:07 PM »Jayceeii:Jayceeii:Indeed, the neither the Bible nor any other religious text contains a clear teaching about the soul***. Lay Christians, at least in the Lutheran church as I know from experience, do think about the soul as distinct from the body at times, but at other times they expect their bodies to be raised after Judgment. The reason for this ambivalence is that the minds are not experienced in spiritual realities, even to know themselves, to think clearly about this most vital of all topics. Mm’s theory is that the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies. This is not church doctrine, but something he was making up on the fly in response to some of my challenges. Do you agree with mm’s theory or do you have another of your own, as to how a dead personality can be restored?
There is no scriptural support for your belief that, to quote you: "the soul separates from the body at death." According to scripture, the soul is the very same person who died. I will provide scripture to support what I just stated after I hear back from you.
In general people who don’t mind “handing off” their personalities to God or to annihilation, are not “awake” in the sense of valuing their own personal presence.
Your assertion that the Bible does not contain "a clear teaching about the soul" is incorrect. In both the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and the Greek Scriptures (New Testament), Almighty God informs the reader that the soul dies and that at death, all consciousness cease. Notice scriptural evidence below:
THE SOUL DIES:
"Behold. all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4 -- King James Bible)
NOTHING CONSCIOUSLY SURVIVES ONE'S DEATH:
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- English Standard Version)
QUESTION #1 TO JAYCEEII: According to Ezekiel 18:4, the soul can sin, and as a result, the soul is capable of dying." TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #2 TO JAYCEEII: According to Ecclesiastes 9:5, does a person retain their personality after they have died?" YES or NO?
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Posted by: Alter2Ego
« on: October 05, 2019, 09:27:00 PM »jayceeii:The human being does long for annihilation, and this explains the popularity of Buddhism and Hinduism. In Christianity it is less explicit, and it is not generally preached that the adherents will be annihilated completely (perhaps to be stored in God’s Mind), prior to going to Heaven. If this were preached the religion will lose popularity.Maxximiliann:The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
Excellent rhetorical question. There is scriptural support for annihilation. A dead person does not have a personality since, according to scripture, someone who is dead no longer exists.
Annihilation is explicitly indicated in throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible. Throughout the Greek Scriptures aka New Testament, Jesus' disciples wrote of their hope of resurrection from the dead. Below is one such example:
"I have a hope in God, which these men themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection, both of the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15 -- Christian Standard Bible)
Nowhere within scripture is there anything resembling the suggestion of a soul literally leaving the dead body that then continues to live in the "spirit realm."
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: October 04, 2019, 11:22:44 AM »Indeed, the neither the Bible nor any other religious text contains a clear teaching about the soul. Lay Christians, at least in the Lutheran church as I know from experience, do think about the soul as distinct from the body at times, but at other times they expect their bodies to be raised after Judgment. The reason for this ambivalence is that the minds are not experienced in spiritual realities, even to know themselves, to think clearly about this most vital of all topics. Mm’s theory is that the personality, memories, etc. are retained in God’s Mind when the body dies. This is not church doctrine, but something he was making up on the fly in response to some of my challenges. Do you agree with mm’s theory or do you have another of your own, as to how a dead personality can be restored?jayceeii:You're begging the question, since this is the controversy between us. I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date. The fact is you do not really know what death is. You're thinking of a dead body, but you do not know what happened to the person inside the body. It is invalid to attempt to make reference to “common knowledge” about death, when this does not exist. Dead bodies are seen, not the inner processes.The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
You are also unable to provide scriptural support for your ideas, but appear to be making them up as you go along. What you have in the Bible is a collection of poetic verses, open to varied interpretations. No one else has ever stated your theory of “storage by Mind,” but also no one else has ever been challenged to find a solid teaching about the soul in the Bible. It can't be done, so you grasp at straws.
There is no scriptural support for your belief that, to quote you: "the soul separates from the body at death." According to scripture, the soul is the very same person who died. I will provide scripture to support what I just stated after I hear back from you.
In general people who don’t mind “handing off” their personalities to God or to annihilation, are not “awake” in the sense of valuing their own personal presence.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: October 04, 2019, 11:11:34 AM »The human being does long for annihilation, and this explains the popularity of Buddhism and Hinduism. In Christianity it is less explicit, and it is not generally preached that the adherents will be annihilated completely (perhaps to be stored in God’s Mind), prior to going to Heaven. If this were preached the religion will lose popularity.Maxximiliann:The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
Excellent rhetorical question. There is scriptural support for annihilation. A dead person does not have a personality since, according to scripture, someone who is dead no longer exists.
Posted by: Alter2Ego
« on: September 07, 2019, 04:23:52 PM »jayceeii:You're begging the question, since this is the controversy between us. I say the soul separates from the body at death, you say the life force returns to the Creator with no further relation to the person, and that the Creator retains the memories and personality of the individual, to be restored at a later date. The fact is you do not really know what death is. You're thinking of a dead body, but you do not know what happened to the person inside the body. It is invalid to attempt to make reference to “common knowledge” about death, when this does not exist. Dead bodies are seen, not the inner processes.The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
You are also unable to provide scriptural support for your ideas, but appear to be making them up as you go along. What you have in the Bible is a collection of poetic verses, open to varied interpretations. No one else has ever stated your theory of “storage by Mind,” but also no one else has ever been challenged to find a solid teaching about the soul in the Bible. It can't be done, so you grasp at straws.
There is no scriptural support for your belief that, to quote you: "the soul separates from the body at death." According to scripture, the soul is the very same person who died. I will provide scripture to support what I just stated after I hear back from you.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Posted by: Alter2Ego
« on: September 07, 2019, 04:09:52 PM »Maxximiliann:The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.
The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
Excellent rhetorical question. There is scriptural support for annihilation. A dead person does not have a personality since, according to scripture, someone who is dead no longer exists.
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: July 18, 2019, 05:42:34 PM »An amanuenses is, “a person employed to write or type what another dictates or to copy what has been written by another.” In other words, a blind instrument of the Holy Spirit as I said! Otherwise it would be necessary to fill in what is meant by “capable,” when they do not know themselves, but merely record the words that God put into their heads.
Your argument devolves, as I've stated before, into saying the Bible appeared from the Holy Spirit wielding humans as blind instruments, utterly devoid of knowledge themselves.
Here, let me fix your Strawman-
"Your argumentdevolveshinges, as I've stated before,into sayingon the Bibleappeared from the Holy Spirit wielding humans as blind instruments, utterly devoid of knowledge themselveshaving been penned by capable amanuenses inspired by Jehovah God's holy spirit to record his thoughts for our benefit and enlightenment.
Glad I could help
(Btw, you do know you can just ask if there's anything about my position that goes over your head, right?)
This is also not formal Christian doctrine. New converts are not told the scriptures arose by entities “transparent” to the Holy Spirit’s purposes, nor is it in any way defined what “transparent” could possibly mean. It appears to be a form of mindlessness and ignorance. If God can speak directly through people, He hasn’t said very much as the Bible is missing any such mechanistic explanations, amounting to vague hand-waving.
I’d attest that God’s thoughts could not come through any creature, insisting this is part of Jesus’ meaning to say, “No one comes to the Father, but through me.” God is divine, but nothing that has been generated on Earth before is divine, including the revealed scriptures, failing to guide anyone to salvation. God must be having quite the laugh if people believe they have His Word, or that they could speak for Him, if the Lord is near.
The other two comments are dripping with derision, as mm evidently believes me to be dirt beneath his heel. Jesus said, “As you do unto the least of these, so do you unto me,” and I can testify that I have been “done unto.” I have not seen any wisdom from mm, only negative, hostile and ill-coordinated reactions, isolating fragments of my assertions while ignoring the whole and the questions I’ve posed that would help convince a rational person. Although I have asked many questions, he taunts me here, but I won’t ask more.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: July 18, 2019, 05:41:37 PM »The religions were never attempts to persuade man. They are more like pillars for social guidance, according to the principles men can comprehend. A human who is persuaded, is still a human—and that might have negative repercussions. The truth is that human nature means humans can never deeply agree. In the religions it works out that each actually has a private interpretation, that does not match even those sitting next to him in the pews of his own sect (which in turn are in obvious disagreement with all other sects).You are also wildly incorrect to presume I am attempting to persuade you that I am a better authority than those authoring the Bible.
Which is why you continually fail to persuade.
Yet mm is wrong, for even were I attempting to persuade him, I know that I must fail. He’s given me a diversion when others are not responding to me here, but I don’t expect it to come to a good end. I’m hoping to get more details from him about his newly derived existential theories, that he’s projected from a negative reaction to some of my posts. He’s showing certain weaknesses in Christianity, trying to build a case on flimsy scripture. In any case my ultimate success or failure, does not depend on my assertions.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: July 18, 2019, 05:40:41 PM »Mm is again leaving us in the dark about his exact train of reasoning, expecting others to understand what he is trying to say, without actually saying it. Since I did not make this assertion directly, we have to assume he thinks that I made it indirectly somehow, but that was certainly not my intent. I surely do not regard mm to be an authority of any kind.
No, you have said exactly this. Let me quote your original words, that you've been re-quoting but seem to forget at your convenience. If I have not summarized your position accurately, please supply such a summary.Concerning the anticipated resurrection of those who have died, Christ Jesus explicated, "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life." (John 5:28, 29)
If you notice, Christ mentions that only those in memorial tombs would be resurrected. In effect, this means all those who Jehovah God has chosen to keep in his memory will be recreated. (cf. Matthew 19:28) Of course this entails storing an unimaginable volume of details, memories, experiences, features, qualities, attributes, genetic data, etc., etc. but this is perfectly feasible for our Almighty Creator. (cf. Isaiah 40:26)
So where is all of the life energy of all those who have died? At Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read that when someone dies “the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” Accordingly, much like electricity returning to a power supply, upon death a person's life energy or spirit simply returns to he who is the very source of all life, Jehovah God. (Psalm 36:9)
You're not actually suggesting that I am the author of John, Isaiah, Ecclesiastes, Psalms or Matthew, are you?
He has failed to provide the summary I requested, if my summary was inadequate. In general he has argued that at death God draws the “life energy” back to Himself, like electricity. This life energy therefore seems to be held in a common store, and is not unique to individuals. This means that at the expected mass resurrection, God would need to activate a new region of “life energy,” completely different from anything going on while the human in question is alive today. At the same time we are told God will store the people in His Mind. Reacting to my queries, mm asserts God will strip all bad memories of their emotional force, neglecting to notice this means all memories are “strippable,” hence it is probable good memories are also stripped of their emotions. (None of this is in the Bible.) He has also said God will be purifying the souls, by annihilating all negative tendencies, though he hasn’t proved humans have anything else.
The force of mm’s objection here appears to be that he sees his mind as a direct extension from the Bible, authentically melding and unifying its teachings. He is not saying that he authored the books, but that these authorities had in mind exactly what he has in mind. Yet the Christians do not tell new converts God will steal their essence and store them in His Mind as they die. This is mm’s theory alone. If it becomes doctrine, the religion dies.
One trouble of the Bible and other religious revelations being so simplistic, is that all who read them presume they comprehend, that they have the authentic interpretation. This oversimplification has been a kind of honey trap, beguiling the “bears” who want to feel they are masters of their domain. It is possible to generate scripture that is difficult for humans to understand, and also impossible for them to sidestep as it points to sinfulness directly. In general the reasoning coming down from Heaven is trackless, which is to say since it arises from principles of pure spirit, any ignorant of spirit cannot follow its traces.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: July 18, 2019, 05:39:25 PM »The point of mm’s argument, which he does not bring out because he regards it to be self-evident, would be that anything Satan says must be a lie, and if he told Adam and Eve they would not die, instead they will get annihilation. All of this is a new interpretation of scripture, unless mm can find other Christians who are teaching that soul = body + life force, and that God annihilates this at death, holding the personalities solely in His memory. Perhaps other Christians would say this if challenged over the lack of a biblical description of the soul, but they’d be making up their answers in parallel with mm, and no Christian currently has it as a theory because no one is truly concerned about the soul.I say the soul separates from the body at death.The mechanism you propose would strip all personal identity from the people in question, amounting to annihilation.The dead person? How can the dead retain their personality if they're, you know, dead?
God promised Adam and Eve, “As for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:17)
In turn Satan disaffirmed, “YOU positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4)
Who do you believe? Jehovah God or Satan?
Are Adam and Eve dead or alive?
You also don’t know here what God meant by “positively die.” This is a poetic phrase, not a clear declaration of existential truth. Other interpretations are possible, that Christians have not seen. I’d agree it’s an unhappy fate, as man makes his own morality.
Posted by: jayceeii
« on: July 18, 2019, 05:38:08 PM »It is more upon the Christians to prove they indeed possess “the Counselor,” than for others claiming to see the Holy Spirit enters them to prove this. This has been the primary argument for why prophets are no longer required, that they have “the Counselor” Jesus said He would send, giving them inner guidance so outer guidance is no longer needed.There's no need to prove it,I have watched the Holy Spirit stepping in to provide “aid” to human thoughts and emotions.Prove it.
"That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
As such, consider your claims dismissed.
To find a Christian admitting he does not possess “the Counselor,” would be finding one who admits he is in need of a prophet before he will know what God is like or what God wants from humanity before bestowing salvation. In this he would be opposed to the entire religion. He’d have to go on his own, searching for prophets that God might send.
It is to be pondered here too, that there might be no benefit to those who can see the Holy Spirit indwelling in men, to prove that they can see this to those men. Possibly such proofs can exist among friends, but to win Christians over to explicit admission of their own liturgies, so they’d be less hypocritical, is not likely to be an especially urgent goal.