Retired Boards (Archived)
Omniscience
Posted by: TrippFields
« on: July 31, 2012, 03:48:57 PM »Based on your conception of future free actions would the fact that God will only do one possible outcome in the future be deterministic on God's will as well as all of the rest of us?
Posted by: Reductio Ad Absurdum
« on: July 31, 2012, 02:08:31 PM »No, God can not foretell what he will do, because if he could then that would entail that his freely chosen actions are the product of deterministic processes, from whence he wouldn't be free in the first place.
Accordingly to how he is defined, he must be free. Is he not free then he is not himself.
Accordingly to how he is defined, he must be free. Is he not free then he is not himself.
Posted by: Andrea Lynn Winter
« on: July 13, 2012, 03:41:37 PM »troyjs wrote:
I am not an open-theist, however it seems absurd a position given the Bible's position on God's omniscience and gift of prophecy. What does God mean when He says He will save His people from their sins, if He doesn't know the future? Is God guessing, and if so, why should we believe Him?
kind regards
Hi Troy,
Old post you have here but I figured since I hold the open view, I would attempt to briefly answer this question.
Isaiah 46:10 is often raised in objection to the open view, "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'" However, when it is raised, it is hardly ever quoted in its entirety. It's often, "God knows the end from the beginning." But why does God know the end from be beginning? It must be because God has a divine purpose that He seeks to accomplish, and what He sets out to do, He does, even in and through humans, whether they be in harmony with Him, or whether they are in rebellion.
So, when God declares He is going to save people from their sins, that's what He is going to do. It's not because He saw the specifics of it from the beginning to the end, like He's a spectator, but because He's declaring such a truth as a divine appointment that He is going to fulfill on a promise.
Posted by: troyjs
« on: March 01, 2012, 08:04:15 PM »lopez18,
In theology, there are classically 2 types of knowledge that God has: Natural knowledge; and free knowledge. (Molinists also believe in 'middle' knowledge).
Natural knowledge is the knowledge God has of Himself.
Free knowledge is knowledge God has of everything apart from Himself, ie. creation.
This is based upon the 2 ultimate categories of Creator and creation. There is nothing which exists, which is not part of thise 2 categories.
(Molinists also include middle-knowledge: Knowledge God has of the possible creations.)
I suppose there are different types of open theists, however I suspect that they believe that God knows He can create the universe, and He knows what He is capable of creating, but He doesn't know what He will create until He actually does. In the case of those who believe that God exists in time, then God does not know that He will create, nor when. In the cae of those who believe God does not exist in time, they believe that there is no time prior to creation in which God can be ignorant of His being a creator.
John Owen for example (not an open theist), believed that God only knows His creation mediately, as opposed to immediately. That is, He knows creation in relation to Himself. For example, God knows what a tree is, because God knows that He is a Creator of a tree and that God has created it with all the properties that it has. Some might say that this means God does not 'really' know His creation, or have 'true' free-knowledge at all, and therefore does not really know the future.
I am not an open-theist, however it seems absurd a position given the Bible's position on God's omniscience and gift of prophecy. What does God mean when He says He will save His people from their sins, if He doesn't know the future? Is God guessing, and if so, why should we believe Him?
kind regards
If so, if God was not even aware that He was going to create, why should it be assumed that God actually knew how to create? What knowledge did God have eternally and how did He derive at such knowledge?
In theology, there are classically 2 types of knowledge that God has: Natural knowledge; and free knowledge. (Molinists also believe in 'middle' knowledge).
Natural knowledge is the knowledge God has of Himself.
Free knowledge is knowledge God has of everything apart from Himself, ie. creation.
This is based upon the 2 ultimate categories of Creator and creation. There is nothing which exists, which is not part of thise 2 categories.
(Molinists also include middle-knowledge: Knowledge God has of the possible creations.)
I suppose there are different types of open theists, however I suspect that they believe that God knows He can create the universe, and He knows what He is capable of creating, but He doesn't know what He will create until He actually does. In the case of those who believe that God exists in time, then God does not know that He will create, nor when. In the cae of those who believe God does not exist in time, they believe that there is no time prior to creation in which God can be ignorant of His being a creator.
John Owen for example (not an open theist), believed that God only knows His creation mediately, as opposed to immediately. That is, He knows creation in relation to Himself. For example, God knows what a tree is, because God knows that He is a Creator of a tree and that God has created it with all the properties that it has. Some might say that this means God does not 'really' know His creation, or have 'true' free-knowledge at all, and therefore does not really know the future.
I am not an open-theist, however it seems absurd a position given the Bible's position on God's omniscience and gift of prophecy. What does God mean when He says He will save His people from their sins, if He doesn't know the future? Is God guessing, and if so, why should we believe Him?
kind regards
Posted by: tuffbot324
« on: February 02, 2012, 02:14:36 PM »mwalimu, your responses are difficult to read with lots of emphesis.
This whole idea that God created time, steps into time, or is apart from time seems to be logically incoherent. Doesn't any action take place within time itself? Isn't that the definition of time? Time is the seperation of events. To say that God created, requires an action. First, there was no creation, and then there was a creation. There cannot be a creation and no creation at the same time (in the same universe), so there must have been a before and after, which is time, so God cannot seperate himself from time. God cannot even think of creating the universe or creating time itself without time.
This whole idea that God created time, steps into time, or is apart from time seems to be logically incoherent. Doesn't any action take place within time itself? Isn't that the definition of time? Time is the seperation of events. To say that God created, requires an action. First, there was no creation, and then there was a creation. There cannot be a creation and no creation at the same time (in the same universe), so there must have been a before and after, which is time, so God cannot seperate himself from time. God cannot even think of creating the universe or creating time itself without time.
Posted by: Archsage
« on: February 25, 2011, 06:58:29 PM »Well, ignoring mwalimu's passionate response, let's look at your valid inquiry:
Why would you believe this to be true? God is independent of Time, past present and future mean little to nothing to him. They are all there before Him, all of time is a "present". Which is why He simply is. He is, was and is to come. Because from all the aspects of Time God has lived, God is living. God is.
He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. God does know "our" future, because it is not the future for Him. It is not His future. Time means nothing to God, unless he steps into time itself (the Christ). God does things when he does it, how he does it, because he does. Who are we to seek to understand the mind of God when we struggle to even understand the minds of each other?
Remember, God is omniscient, he knows all things. And God is timeless, he has no "past" or "future" in the way that we temporal beings do.
Why would you believe this to be true? God is independent of Time, past present and future mean little to nothing to him. They are all there before Him, all of time is a "present". Which is why He simply is. He is, was and is to come. Because from all the aspects of Time God has lived, God is living. God is.
He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. God does know "our" future, because it is not the future for Him. It is not His future. Time means nothing to God, unless he steps into time itself (the Christ). God does things when he does it, how he does it, because he does. Who are we to seek to understand the mind of God when we struggle to even understand the minds of each other?
Remember, God is omniscient, he knows all things. And God is timeless, he has no "past" or "future" in the way that we temporal beings do.
Posted by: Archsage
« on: February 25, 2011, 06:58:29 PM »Well, ignoring mwalimu's passionate response, let's look at your valid inquiry:
Why would you believe this to be true? God is independent of Time, past present and future mean little to nothing to him. They are all there before Him, all of time is a "present". Which is why He simply is. He is, was and is to come. Because from all the aspects of Time God has lived, God is living. God is.
He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. God does know "our" future, because it is not the future for Him. It is not His future. Time means nothing to God, unless he steps into time itself (the Christ). God does things when he does it, how he does it, because he does. Who are we to seek to understand the mind of God when we struggle to even understand the minds of each other?
Remember, God is omniscient, he knows all things. And God is timeless, he has no "past" or "future" in the way that we temporal beings do.
Why would you believe this to be true? God is independent of Time, past present and future mean little to nothing to him. They are all there before Him, all of time is a "present". Which is why He simply is. He is, was and is to come. Because from all the aspects of Time God has lived, God is living. God is.
He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end. God does know "our" future, because it is not the future for Him. It is not His future. Time means nothing to God, unless he steps into time itself (the Christ). God does things when he does it, how he does it, because he does. Who are we to seek to understand the mind of God when we struggle to even understand the minds of each other?
Remember, God is omniscient, he knows all things. And God is timeless, he has no "past" or "future" in the way that we temporal beings do.
Posted by: Cletus Nze
« on: January 08, 2011, 03:11:28 AM »lopez18 wrote: This question is directed to open theists position.
If God is in a state of timelessness which He must have been as existing prior to the creation of the universe and so time, He cannot continuously obtain knowledge of the future; God from eternity is either ignorant of the future all together, or He knows exhaustively what the future holds. If I am not mistaken I would think this is why the open theist would maintain that the future is unknowable and that God comes to know the future as it happens, because He is ignorant of the future all together.
The creation of the universe technically would have taken place in the future, and the future being unknowable to God, it would follow that God would not even have known that He was going to create. So, would it not be reasonable to assume that God didn't even know He was going to create according to open theism?
If so, if God was not even aware that He was going to create, why should it be assumed that God actually knew how to create? What knowledge did God have eternally and how did He derive at such knowledge?
This is just DRIVEL! Time is a PRODUCT Created by the Being and Will of God - along with Space! They are the Possibilities which arise subsequently from the FACT of God's Existence! Fulfillment of these possibilities, or at least some of them - i.e. occupation of their states ONLY by activity or objects is something that can proceed from God as the Primary Source of ALL ACTION! So the idea of God obtaining information from the future or being ignorant of it is simply ABSURD to the point of imbecility!
Posted by: eleuterio lopez
« on: October 22, 2010, 12:16:40 PM »This question is directed to open theists position.
If God is in a state of timelessness which He must have been as existing prior to the creation of the universe and so time, He cannot continuously obtain knowledge of the future; God from eternity is either ignorant of the future all together, or He knows exhaustively what the future holds. If I am not mistaken I would think this is why the open theist would maintain that the future is unknowable and that God comes to know the future as it happens, because He is ignorant of the future all together.
The creation of the universe technically would have taken place in the future, and the future being unknowable to God, it would follow that God would not even have known that He was going to create. So, would it not be reasonable to assume that God didn't even know He was going to create according to open theism?
If so, if God was not even aware that He was going to create, why should it be assumed that God actually knew how to create? What knowledge did God have eternally and how did He derive at such knowledge?
If God is in a state of timelessness which He must have been as existing prior to the creation of the universe and so time, He cannot continuously obtain knowledge of the future; God from eternity is either ignorant of the future all together, or He knows exhaustively what the future holds. If I am not mistaken I would think this is why the open theist would maintain that the future is unknowable and that God comes to know the future as it happens, because He is ignorant of the future all together.
The creation of the universe technically would have taken place in the future, and the future being unknowable to God, it would follow that God would not even have known that He was going to create. So, would it not be reasonable to assume that God didn't even know He was going to create according to open theism?
If so, if God was not even aware that He was going to create, why should it be assumed that God actually knew how to create? What knowledge did God have eternally and how did He derive at such knowledge?